Joe:   Welcome. This is the Real Estate Investing Mastery Podcast. Hey everybody, welcome this is the Real Estate Investing Mastery podcast, glad you are here. This is going to be an exciting episode because we have interviewed this lady before, and guess what, she is still doing deals. Still doing a lot of them and I think Kathy it might have been about two years since we talked last. It feels like, maybe it has been a year I don’t know Kathy, do you know?

Kathy:   Two years ago.

Joe:   Two years. And you know what else I am trying to remember I might have been in Prague at the same time that we did this interview last time, and I'm in Prague again. So anyway guys this is the Real Estate Investing Mastery podcast, make sure you go to realestateinvestingmastery.com to get our fast cash survival kit, and listen to all of our previous episodes, and listen to the episode we did before with Kathy. I'm going to pull up that episode here in a minute. You can also get transcriptions of all of our podcasts, you can get a lot of bonus, actually episode 31, April 2012 is when we released it.

Kathy:   So, that was three years ago.

Joe:   Yeah, because I was in Prague. Guys, this has been one of our most popular podcasts ever. It was episode 31 and we were talking about direct mail with Kathy, and guess what we are going to be talking about again, we are going to be talking about direct mail, because, Kathy it still works doesn’t it?

Kathy:   Oh, yes sir, better than ever.

Joe:   So, I excited about this episode, we are going to just ask Kathy for an update, we are going to talk about what is going in her business, she is still doing deals, doing a lot of them. Down in Florida she has got students that are doing a lot of deals, and ever since then I have not slowed down at all with my direct mail, we have still been doing a lot of direct mails still getting a lot of calls. This is going to be a really good episode I'm looking forward to it, but again go to realestateinvestingmastery.com to get the show notes to listen to episode 31 that we did before with Kathy.

I am just going to ask you one more thing guys, please leave us a review on iTunes, if you go to iTunes, if you like the show please subscribe. Let us know that you like it, we get a lot of good reviews on there, I was just looking earlier this morning, we have 274 five-star reviews in iTunes. Now, that is not as much as some guys, like the Bigger Pockets guys, I think they have over a couple thousands, I'm not sure, something ridiculous, something crazy like that, but we have still a ton of really good reviews, and I wanted to read a few of the most recent ones here just to give a shout out to you guys. This is from A Tool Called Shinobi, I am not sure if that is the name or not, but that is what it says here.

Full of value five stars, great podcast, it speaks volume and experience, one of the first real estate podcasts that I have stumbled upon, after listening to your shows I find it harder to listen to others. I tune in every time you guys have a new podcast out, and we listen to the others while waiting for new episodes. I enjoy the variety of guests and hearing their stories along with the wealth of knowledge that they bring, keep it raining real estate wisdom. I think it is going to be one of those episodes where you guys are going to get tremendous wealth of knowledge here.

One more from Slick 428 homerun! 5 stars. The REIMS podcast is terrific, Joe and Alex bring a relaxed presence and carefully ensure that the guest interview is entertaining and chalk full of good information. I especially like the sense of realness in delivering the ins and outs of REI both the ups and downs, if I have any complaints which I really don’t is that Joe being from Saint Louis is naturally a Saint Louis cardinals fan, go cardinals, me I am sitting here in Southern California rooting for the dodgers. I hope to have the opportunity to meet these two guys in person learning more from them, working on deals together, and maybe even enjoying a dodger game together.

Thank you so much Slick 428 and A Tool Called Shinobi. I appreciate the reviews, guys if you do like the show leave us a review, let guys know that you like it in iTtunes, subscribe in iTunes, leave us a review. Let us get into this so, Kathy, thanks, welcome back to the show.

Kathy:   Well, thank you so much for having me, lots of great things have happened in the last three years.

Joe:   I can’t believe it has been three years, again it is one of our most popular episodes, the last time we talked I remember I was in Prague. We were there for a couple of months, we were there for a couple of months, we are back here again for three months, we are going back to Saint Louis in a month from now. Here is the crazy thing Kathy, I am still sending mail from Prague. I am still sending direct mail from Prague, it is still getting the phone to ring and we are still doing deals, and my number one lead source is direct mail, and I would assume it has been three years, are you still doing direct mail yourself?

Kathy:   We are still doing a ton of direct mail, one of the very unique traits of direct mail is, you and I both know is that, it is a continuous source of incoming leads, it is a machine. Once you set your machine in place no matter what your real estate market is doing, direct mail is going to continue to turn out more and more deals, and the longer you do it the more deals you end up getting, because your response rate starts getting higher, your repetitive mailing starts getting even more responses, and you start doing even more deals.

We have been doing a ton of deals, and I find not only in my area here in Florida, but throughout the United States, I have a lot of coaching students that I work with on a weekly basis. So, I hear from them all the time and they are just getting amazing results from their direct mail as well.

Joe:   You know, I can hear people sometimes complaining about direct mail Kathy, because they are worried about competition, they are worried about there is a lot of people doing it in my market. I sent out 500 postcards, or I sent out 2000 letters or whatever, and I didn’t get a deal, it doesn’t work. What have you found to be the key Kathy on why direct mail works?

Kathy:   Okay, and I love this question, it is my favorite question of all, thank you so much. One of the reasons that my direct mail works so well as you know, is that the letters that we use are unique to each individual type of seller that we are trying to reach, so we are not sending a generic letter to everybody, each letter that we send individually targets that particular type of sellers situation, that is number one. Number two we use very specific lists, and very specific list brokers, to target specific types of sellers, and then within each list we also use very specific parameters to really hone in on very specific kinds of sellers that we are trying to reach, and that causes our response rate to get really high.

The other thing that you know Joe that I do that is very different from a lot of other folks that are doing direct mail is number one we do letters, and within the body of that letter is a response mechanism that allows the seller to give me all the information I need in order to determine whether or not there is a deal in there. I am not dealing with all the junk, I am not getting the responses of don’t ever mail to me again. We get a few, but we don’t get a lot, most of the sellers that I am getting response from first of all most of them don’t pick up a phone and call me. Most of them respond to me by email, fax or by snail mail, they mail me their responses, and when I get responses from sellers, not only do I have the information I need, but they also include photographs of the properties for me.

Joe:   This is so crazy, I remember you talking about this.

Kathy:   Yeah, so we know that we are dealing with really motivated sellers instead of just sending out a generic postcard or a generic letter saying, hey I want to buy your house or whatever. What I am doing is very-very niched, and very targeted and very specific and I give my students and myself a variety of different kinds of sellers. Depending on what kind of deals I want in my business, or what deals you want in your business, you can target very specific kind of mail campaigns to bring you exactly what you are looking for, and it works really well.

Joe:   I remember you talking about this before Kathy, and I have to admit I am still sending generic mail to mainly just the absentee owners. Here is the beautiful thing about direct mail, even though you may not do it exactly right, or you may not do it the best way, it still works, right?

Kathy:   And at least you are doing something.

Joe:   Yes, I think there is a lot of keys to it as well, I think the biggest key is consistency right, you are just consistently doing it, you are just consistently filling your pipeline with leads.

Kathy:   Right, and the thing that’s important about that Joe is whether you are a beginner investor, or whether you are a seasoned investor, you need to have between three and five different targeted marketing in place at all times, one of those has to be direct mail. The other thing that is unique about direct mail is that you can mail out as many or as few as what is comfortable for you. You know with my direct mail campaign you are going to get a very high response rate, if you are still working a full time job for example, and you can’t respond to those sellers, then you don’t want to mail out a thousand pieces in a month because you are not going to be able to handle the responses from that mailing.

So this gives you the opportunity to mail out as few, or as many as you feel comfortable with and you are still going to have deals coming in. To speak to the question that you just asked and, yeah absolutely and you have got to be consistent in whatever kind of marketing you are doing, you could tune it up or tune it back, but you have to be consistent.

Joe:   I think one of the important keys to this too and you mentioned it, if you’re someone that’s really busy, the beautiful thing about direct mail is you can actually target specific homes that you want to buy. You can target three bedroom homes, you can target hoes that have a garage, or maybe a wood frame or block construction, or built between a certain time period or not built before a certain year. Direct mail allows you to be very-very specific on the type of house, the neighborhood, the type of seller, and things like that.

Kathy:   Exactly.

Joe:   I think that is important for people to think about. I wanted to ask you about focusing your direct mail in targeted areas, are you more interested Kathy, do you try and go a mile wide and an inch deep, or are you trying to be an inch wide and a mile deep when you are targeting sellers with your direct mail, and the geographical area that you are trying to do deals in?

Kathy:   Well, for me, we do deals all over Florida, and I try to keep it within Florida so that I can keep my hands tightly on my deals. What I am doing these days and you can target my direct mail campaigns to bring you whatever type of deals that you need. If you need to wholesale deals because you need money like you need oxygen, you can absolutely do that. If you are somebody who is a keeper kind of a person, and you want to gain equity for your business, you can absolutely do that. So you can target my direct mail campaigns to bring you exactly what you are looking for in your own business. For me lately what we have been doing primarily is buy six and flip, and then buy and hold, and hold for us might mean rentals, it might mean lease options, it might mean work for equity.

We have little bit of variety in what we do in our business. We primarily love single family homes, but we do do the mobile homes here in Florida, we do vacant land in a couple of different areas in Florida, that’s a whole podcast for another day, and we do multi families, but our primary field of expertise that we really love is the single family homes. So we try to keep that within an hour, so basically if you took a piece of string and you put an hour all the way around in a circle, that is kind of the area that we cover, and the reason that we do that is because we have awesome crews, our crews go in, they fix it up and then we do whatever we are going to do with it, whether we are going to keep it, flip it or hold on to it.

We really like to work within about an hour parameter of where our offices are, however in the northern Florida area we own a lot of vacant land, because I don’t have to keep an eye on that as much as you would your single family homes and so forth. We try and keep it local, but yet with my direct mail campaign just like you are doing, you are in Prague and you are doing deals in the US, correct?

Joe:     Yes.

Kathy:   I have students in Canada who are doing deals in the U.S., that is the other thing that is really cool and unique about my direct mail is we have the list brokers to work with you, to provide you and we have companies that will do all the mailings for you.

We have actually added new companies since I talked to you last, so now if you want 50 letters a week done by one of our companies they will do that for you as well. We give you a variety of ways to get the work done, whether you want to do it yourself or hire it out, then we give you a variety of different ways to get that accomplished as well.

Joe:   Okay good, I got a lot of questions that I want to ask you Kathy, we already talked about why direct mail, because it works, number one, right. I want to ask you can you get more details about the list that you want to send to, do you get the list yourself; do you use a list broker, what are some of your favorite lists?

Kathy:   Okay, some of the favorite target prospects that I like to work with are out of state owners, quick claim deeds, and estates. Here lately we are buying a lot of estates, but you have to remember I live in Florida, we are like the senior capital of the world kind of thing, I like working with expired list things on those list of course come from realtors. We work in the free flow closure market; I work at multifamily properties, vacant houses of course, because those are free leads. We work a lot with attorneys who brings us leads, military transfers are awesome. We work with the for sale by owner properties, senior home owners, zip code mailers, getting the deeds. So there is a lot of different types of sellers that we work with.

And there are a lot of ways for our folks to get the list. I get the list sometimes from my property appraiser’s office, they will just simply create the list exactly the way I get give them the perimeters to create it. We work with specific list of brokers, and I have list of brokers all over the country who will provide the list for our students, no matter where they live and no matter which direct campaign they — which direct mail campaign they want to do, so that's really easy. Vacant houses, we pick up vacant houses like every single day.

We have lists brokers that will actually provide those, and we have a list broker who sends me the local for sale by owners every single day. So that's really cool, so those I have on hand, but any time we are driving anywhere we are looking for vacant houses and acquiring those as well. As matter of fact just a couple of days ago we went driving for dollars, because I'm always out there testing what I'm teaching. And we found five possibilities in the higher dollar houses and more luxury houses.

And two of those have turned out to be possible deals and I'm working on both of those. So there's a lot of different types of sellers that I like to target. And I like to target them for different reasons, because some make better keep for profit properties, some make better flips, some make better wholesales, like vacant for example are awesome wholesale usually. And when my students are working with me, I kind of explain to them how to do all that, and how to create these lists and do these mailings, because they are just so good. They are so successful, and the sellers are just awesome.

Joe:   Good, now talk about what you are sending them, you mentioned before you were sending a letter, are you — and you include — well, first of all let me ask you, do you send any postcards at all or just letters?

Kathy:   We only send postcards to acquire buyers, just to build our buyers list. And I will occasionally send a postcard if I'm testing a new list. But other than that we are sending letters.

Joe:   And are you sending handwritten yellow letters, or are you sending typed letters with the business logo and address on the top, more professional looking letters?

Kathy:   They are more professional looking letters, they are typed, we don’t use the business name except for like multifamily and stuff like that. But the other state owners, quit claim deeds, the estate, the expired listing, we use our personal name and address, the letter is typed. When we are doing repetitive mailings, we repeat the same letter each time. And Joe we've tested the fire out of this. And what we find is if we change the letter, the seller forgets that it's the same person.

And what I want them to understand is that it’s the same person sending them residual mailings, because you are creating that relationship with that seller, you are creating credibility with the seller. And within the body of the letter we target the seller's exact situation. We tell them how we can help them and so forth, and then we build that response mechanism in there. And we tell the seller exactly what it is we want them to do, because if you don’t tell your seller what you want them to do; they are not going to do anything.

We also tell them within the body of the letter the whole — if you are not ready to sell right now please hold on to my letter, and they do. I mean we get responses Joe three, six, ten, a year out.

Joe:   Sure.

Kathy:   We just bought a house three months ago from a guy, and of course it was a gentleman that we had written a letter to a year ago, responded to our mailing, he wasn’t able to — we just couldn't get it together at that time. He couldn’t decide what price he wanted, or if he really wanted to sell. And we put him in our follow up file, so he was getting follow ups from us. And three months ago we bought that house.

Joe:   So how often doo you send a letter to your list?

Kathy:   It varies, it depends on which direct mail campaign we are doing and which letter that we are doing, but at the least every 30 days and at the most every 90 days.

Joe:   So good.

Kathy:   But each direct mail campaign varies a little bit.

Joe:   So you'll hit them up every — depending on the list every one to three months right?

Kathy:   Correct, yep.

Joe:   And then how many times will you mail them?

Kathy:   We mail them at least for a year, if they have not initially responded to a mailing that we've done, we mail them at least for a year. There was a particular piece of property that I really wanted, and so I started writing this gentleman every single month. And after about eight or nine months he responded to me he is like, all right, I'll sell it to you, if that’s what you want. So I went to the house like I had a separate list for homes like I really want kind of thing, and those go out every 30 days for sure.

Joe:   Okay, so you are sending typed letters and sometimes you put your business name on top, sometimes you don’t. But they have your personal name on it, it's typed, what are you hand addressing the envelope with live stamp?

Kathy:   The envelope is hand addressed, and it is — it's got a stamp on it. And again we've tested and tested this. If you use like bulk-rate mailings, well, bulk mailings obviously are going to get thrown away. But if you use metered mail they also see that as an advertisement. So we always put a live stamp on there, always hand addressed when they go out. And what we find Joe is it doesn’t seem to matter it’s the letter it's handwritten or not.

And one of the reasons that we type — we do the letter type writing as opposed to hand written, is there's a lot of — you are dealing with older folks, so we want the letter like really clean and easy to read. Some people handwriting isn't all that great and then they are sending out letters that people can't read and that’s not a good thing. So we do a type writing, we do it in a good font that’s kind of easy to read, real pain font, nothing fancy. And it seems we've tested, again I have been doing this for 17 years.

We test constantly and what we find is that it doesn’t matter whether its hand written or typed, it matters what the message is. And if you are giving that seller the message they need at the time they need it they are going to respond to your letter and you are going to do the deal.

Joe:   Excellent, you mentioned before you have to tell them what to do, you have a really unique way of doing that in these letters Kathy, can you talk a little bit more about what you include at the bottom of these letters?

Kathy:   I do what I basically do, and actually we do it perforated related so like we flip the lines, it's not perforated but we put like the little lines in there when my letters are produced. So they’ll actually take that piece off and like send it back to us. And basically tell them what to do, if you are not ready to sell right now please hold on to my letter and get with the set of future date. Here is the information that I would like to have from you and I tell them all the information. If you have them available please send some photographs, it makes it easier for us to tell from the beginning whether what your home might look like without disturbing you and having to come out and look at it or if you have a tenant in the property and oh, this is right nicely and professionally written in the letter.

So we explain to them exactly what we want them to do and they respond. Even when they call it's really funny because every now then someone would call instead of mailing you. Okay, so you wanted to know this okay, and you wanted to know that and you could hear it in the messages. And I have actually started to record those to bring them now to live events that I do.

Joe:   Okay, most people this is what I do all right, I just have them call a phone number. And usually goes either voicemail all right, lately the last six months or so I have been having somebody live answer the calls. But I have always done or as I thought always just give them one option. Call me or listen to this 24 hour recorded voicemail. But you give them multiple options, you have them faxed or email or visit your website or mail, this perforated thing back to you, is that right?

Kathy:   Yes and the reason that we do that is purposeful. The more ways you get a seller to contact you, the more of them are going to because you are going to reach them at their comfort level whatever that might be. I work with a ton of sellers who don’t have computers. So they are not emailing me, they are not going to send me email back; they are not looking at my website. So that cuts out 30% of the total sellers I work with. And I hear you people falling off your chairs.

Again we test and test and I'm working with — in part of my mailings I'm working with the more senior kind of market. They don’t have computers. The gentleman that we bought the house from three months ago he is my age, I'm in my 50s; he doesn’t have a computer couldn't be bothered, okay? So he responded to a letter that he got from me. So we gave him the option to respond to us by telephone, by mail, by fax, by email, and the website, or he could call.

So he had all these different options, so he picked me the option that was the most comfortable for him. So the more ways you give a seller to contact you the more of them are going to.

Joe:   So what percent would you say do each of those things Kathy, like what percent would call you, what percent would send you the perforated thing back in the mail?

Kathy:   Okay 10% call is off. I don’t want them calling me Joe, and the reason I don’t want them calling me is because I want the information in front of me before I have the conversation. So if they send me the information about the property and I have got everything I need, I have the photograph, then I can go in and do my research and go whoa this is a deal and call that person right away. And then or go oh, they are out of their mind. So I have got the option as to whether or not I'm going to contact that person.

So probably 10% by phone by email probably 25% or so, by mail 50% over half are coming in by mail.

Joe:   Now some people are going to say well, Kathy you are in Florida there's a lot of elderly people there. And that's why those numbers are skewed that way is that true or how would you answer that?

Kathy:   It's somewhat true, my students are finding probably a little bit higher the phone calls are a little bit higher. Although and also the email numbers are higher with my students. So they are getting — I'm getting more snail mail, my students are getting more email. They are still getting only about 10% of the call, about a 10% call rate and that's because we really [herm] them to contact us more by fax, email or mail. Because I want to have the information in front of me, I don’t want them to pick up a phone and call me, and for me that's kind of cold call.

So I would rather have the information right in front of me. I'm working with the students in Seattle right now, and he is sending me probably a half dozen to 10 emails every week that he is getting — from his responses he is calling out the most highly sellers sending those over to me as his coach to take a look at, and then he and I figure out what offers we are going to make. So that’s Seattle, that's a completely different market that I'm in; houses are completely different in Seattle than they are in Florida.

So primarily it’s email and mail, it's the way they've — yeah. And only about 10% of phone calls and that seems to be throughout the US, throughout my student base.

Joe:   Now it's definitely worth testing, if some of you guys are listening to this don’t believe Kathy, well, just test it. Right, because you should be mailing something to these folks every 30 to 90 days right? So one month send them a postcard, the next time send them a handwritten yellow letter, the next time send them a professional typed looking letter. Test it and you'll find that maybe certain different list or certain demographics respond better to one or the other. But it's definitely worth the shot I have always been of the mind over the opinion that it's important to get them on the phone as quickly as possible. But you try to filter them out a little faster than that, then it sounds like…

Kathy:   I do and because my business is so honed and everything is so automated, I don’t have time for time wasters. I want everything please– I mean when you’ve got your responses coming in please print already, that takes a whole another obstacle out of the equation, especially for the folks that we are talking to on this call that are newbies, that are new folks. If they are getting these responses from my direct mail campaigns, and they are already pre-screened, it makes it a whole lot easier for those folks to work with these sellers, and to figure out what a deal is and isn’t. So that's the other reason that I want them pre-screened because it takes a whole another obstacles, and a whole another step out of that equation.

Joe:   Kathy let's talk about your personal business then in Florida. Can you talk about your numbers like how many houses are you buying a month, how much direct mail are you sending a month, and like maybe how many letters are you sending to get a deal on average?

Kathy:   Okay, we send about 1100 deals — I'm sorry 1100 letters per month. And to be totally honest we were trying to retire.

Joe:   Yeah.

Kathy:   I'm in my late 50s now, and we've been kind of looking that way. And of course everything is quite automated and unlike you we actually took a month and run away in July. And it was the first time we had actually done that in a long-long time, and they really don’t need us that much. I was really amazed to have automated everything really is — they really didn’t need us very much.

Joe:   Yeah, it's not that hard to automate, but okay, good, you are sending….

Kathy:   So we are sending out about 1100 pieces a month and of course all of that’s automated. And again I have a variety of different ways to make that happen. In my own business I have two people who have been working for me for a long time who do our direct mail campaigns. So we have — we show you how you can hire a person, we show you how can hire a company to do that for you. So we are doing about 1100 pieces a month, and originally our target back in the earlier days we were doing about 15-20 deals a month, and that was a lot and we were doing a lot.

And so we decided on like really cut back because I’m really looking more towards retirement, but that hasn’t happened. Honestly, we are doing like three deals a week, two to three deals a week, this is craziness, honestly I got to tell you Joe I mean you must know as well as I do right now this is the best market there has ever been real estate wise, it’s just has been really-really awesome and we are doing a ton of deals, and we are doing all kinds of deals people are selling houses for a lot of different reasons.

Some of it is death in the family, they have inherited a property, the expired listings, they are tired of having people trouncing through their houses all the time, vacant properties, I work with a lot of attorneys, and my attorneys bring me deals really regularly. And my attorneys actually bring me private lenders also, because they know people that have money they need to invest, so that later is particularly profitable for us, so we are doing up to two to three deals a week right now which wasn’t in my dream.

Joe:   You said you are buying these homes, so most of them you are keeping or?

Kathy:   It depends on how the deal comes in, you know that the exit plan is made at the time of purchase, so it depends on how the deal comes in, so lately we are doing a lot more, I used to be in the last several years we were really keeper kind of people, I got a good sized rental, lease option, work for equity type portfolio.

Now that we are getting older, and we are really looking more towards retirement, we are mixing it up we are doing more buy fix and flip than we are keeping, but it depends on how to deal comes in we pick that exit strategy at the time the deal comes in. But we are really buying and selling a lot more now, which is very cool, we sold one day before yesterday, and we put one on the market yesterday, we are turning houses pretty quickly.

Joe:   How are you buying these homes, are you using your own money or using private lenders, how big are the rehabs that you are doing?

Kathy:   Okay, we are doing a variety of things, sometimes we get the deed on the home so we don’t have to worry about financing. Sometimes the owners owner finance for us, and we have a specific mailing that is targeting folks who own their properties free and clear without mortgages. So that is another way to find properties without having to worry about where you are going to get your financing from. I work with a lot of private lenders and so we do a lot of private lending as well.

We do talk in my system a little bit about how to acquire private lenders as well, because there are really-really good resource to find money obviously, to fund your deals. So, we are doing a ton right now, it’s just crazy and the thing that is interesting that we are finding by doing a lot of buy and flip is the fact we are building a huge buyers list. As I acquire the next property I’ve already got most of my buyers in place, or good idea who the buyer is going to be for a particular property, so now they are turning even more quickly than they were before.

Joe:   Good, will talk about what do you do Kathy when the calls come in, only 10% do call, but I am assuming when that call comes in that is a pretty valuable lead?

Kathy:   Absolutely, so basically we ask them all the questions that we want to know.

Joe:   Do the calls come in live or do they go to voicemail, how do you do that?

Kathy:   Sometimes they come in voicemail and sometimes they come in live. Our voicemail actually if you are calling because you received a letter from us please leave your name, your phone number, and the information that we asked for and one of us will call you as soon as we can. That’s simple, it is that simple and they do, they leave because I’ve already told them what to do in the letter and they do it. As I said I started recording those calls when I’m at live events, they can hear what that sounds like and the kind of responses that we are getting. Then when I get a response from a seller and they have given me the information, and I have got some photographs, then I go in and I do the research.

I find out what that property is valued at, how much homes in that area are selling for, by the square foot, generally I have a pretty good idea of the rehab the property needs, I will at that point if I decide, hey there is definitely enough equity here that I could definitely do a deal with the seller, then at that point I am going to call the seller and get a little bit more information, about what kind of rehab the home needs, what they are asking for price wise, and if I feel that I am about three quarters of the way to the deal, and we are pretty agreed on what the price is going to be, at that point one of us will go on a look at it.

Generally by the time I go look at a house I am pretty well positive I am putting it under contract, it is rare that I go out unless I find something where they just really lied, and they didn’t tell me the truth or it is just really horrible or something or completely functionally obsolete or whatever, by the time I get to that property I have already done the deal.

Joe:   So, how long does that whole process kind of take before you actually call them back and make an offer and try to feel them out on the phone?

Kathy:   The last one that I did was two weeks, but this was an estate and she needed to close quickly, two weeks from the day I got her letter to the day we closed.

Joe:   But again when a lead comes in how quickly do you call that seller back?

Kathy:   We follow up immediately if a deal looks like a good deal, folks let me give you the best piece of advice I will give you through this whole phone call, you cannot steal in slow motion, and I do not mean that in a nasty way. I’m just saying if you have a really-really good deal, you can’t have it sitting on your desk, oh I will get to that in a few days, if you got a deal that looks really good, get on it right now. The deal that I just closed on it was two weeks from the day I met with the lady to the day we closed. At the closing table she told me, I met with her on a Sunday afternoon and I don’t generally do that, because my weekends– my Sundays at least are kind of important to me, and I don’t usually do Sundays.

But I met with her on a Sunday afternoon, we put the house on a contract, we closed two weeks later, and at the closing table she said yeah, she goes Monday afternoon, she goes this lady, this friend of mine called and she wanted to see the house because she went to church with her, and she said she goes to church with me and we were talking about it on Sunday and then Monday she called me and said she wanted to come out and see the property, and make me an offer we already had it under contract. So, you’ve got to move, if you got a deal that is a good deal you have got to move.

Joe:   Yeah, very important.

Kathy:   That is really-really important, if I have got a deal on my desk that has come in as a response from a seller, and it looks like a really good deal, it is not sitting on my desk, it is going to get responded to immediately.

Joe:   Good, now talk a little about your follow up, you have sellers that probably aren’t ready to sell yet, maybe they call are just interested, they are tire kickers, what do you do with sellers that aren’t ready to sell yet, do you follow up with them at all?

Kathy:   Absolutely, Joe I got to tell you this is another gem, if they hear nothing else; you have to follow up with some unmotivated sellers. If a seller tells you, oh no not today, oh gee I am not sure, oh can I think about it, are you out of your mind I can’t accept that offer, all they are saying is no not today, because you continue to follow up with me until I change my mind, that’s all they are saying. So yes, we have a specific follow up system in place.

One follow up system for those who have computers we simply use an auto responder system, and as you know Joe that’s so simple, you put it in once and it’s automated, it just does the follow up for you, and we do that every 30 days, we set it to follow up every 30 days. And basically it is a simple email that says, hey it’s Kathy again, I just wanted to remind you when you are ready to sell we are ready to buy, just that simple. And then for those who don’t have computers we use a postcard system for that. So we only use postcards for the follow up, and it is the same thing, hey it is Kathy again, just wanted you to let you know that when you are interested in selling your home, we are certainly interested in buying and make sure that you give us a call. Just real simple like that, that’s all it is, and those—I got probably 40% of the total deals that we do Joe comes from the follow up.

Joe:   40%, that is huge.

Kathy:   40% of our total deals come from the follow up.

Joe:   Because I know what people are thinking they heard you’re only sending 1100 letters per month, and you are doing eight to 12 deals a month. They are thinking that doesn’t compute, but this is why.

Kathy:   It does, it is the follow up, it is a machine, if you put—and you know this, if you put your direct mail marketing in place, you know you put the key in the motor you start the engine, the machine is going to run and the machine just continues to turn out deal after deal after deal. The follow up is urgently important it really-really is. If I had all the deals that other investors threw in the trashcan, I would have more deals than could last me a lifetime seriously, because people are throwing away good deals. This one gentleman that we followed up with, we bought a house from him three months ago. I bought the house three months ago for the same price that I offered him a year ago when I first met with him, and in the mean time he updated the electrical, he termite treated and he put new carpeting in the house. Thank you Mr. Seller, so the follow up is just really-really-really-really important.

Joe:   I say the– and you can’t steal this Kathy unless I got it from you, then you can steal it, there is the three Ms to success, marketing, momentum and mentor. Right, it all starts with marketing, we are in the marketing business, but the momentum piece in this thing is so critically important, I think that is going to be– anybody that is successful in this business understands that momentum from follow up, and I have also heard it said that no means not yet. When a seller says no it just means they are not ready yet, they are going to sell sometime, they are going to sell it to somebody sometime later on down the road, maybe 20 years, but they will.

So the key to this is follow up, and when you are consistently doing this marketing– and correct me if I am wrong, I think I am right. When you are consistently doing this marketing every week, and you are consistently following up every month like the way you are talking about here, that momentum just starts growing and growing and getting bigger and bigger and bigger, and then you’ll start getting calls from a letter you sent three months ago, you will start getting responses back in the mail from that seller that just received your sixth postcard of your follow up campaign or your tenth email. It just, it’s like magic that maybe that is the fourth M, when you do those three things, it becomes magic, because it almost becomes hard not to do a deal, it you’re consistently every week sending out that marketing, and doing that follow up, what would you say to that, am I right?

Kathy:   Oh, you are absolutely right. I will tell you a really quick goofy story about that. I had a lady—this has been a year or so ago, I had a lady call us one day and she says you are going to buy my house. That was her first words out of her mouth, I was like okay, tell me about your situation and she says you’re going to buy my house. I was like okay dummy ask the right question, okay so why am I going to buy your house? And she says, well I do things in threes and I’ve now been contacted by you three times, and you are going to buy my house. She ended up giving us the house with a balance of a mortgage, seriously. So, the follow up is just huge, it really is, we also tell them please hold on to our letter until you are ready to sell. We had heirs find our letters in a drawer and call us.

Joe:   Wow, I heard a story– this hasn’t happened to me, but I’ve heard a story of a friend of mine in one of my master minds. He sent a letter to a seller, and a year or two later I don’t remember, he gets this phone call from a church, and says well, you know this lady– I am trying to get this story correctly. They were saying you probably don’t remember you sent a letter to a lady about a year or two ago about buying her house. She passed away, she deeded the house over to the church, and the church was going through her house files, and the letter said on there, keep this letter in case you have a change of mind and decide to sell your house. She kept the letter in the folder, they were going through the folder, and they called that investor back, and said, are you still interested in buying this house? He bought it, and did a deal and made really-really good money off of it. That just goes back to telling the sellers what to do in those letters, they will do it, and they will follow up later on.

Kathy:   The lady that had gotten the follow up letters from us– the three letters, when we actually got to the home to do the deal, she had them, she had like a memo board on the top of the mantle on her fire place, and all three letters were pinned up on this little sport board that she had on top of the mantle at the fireplace.

Joe:   Kathy, a lot of people are doing direct mail though you know, Florida is a real competitive market, there is a lot of investors there doing deals, and I am sure you hear it from your students, it is just so competitive. My market is different than yours, my market is really hard right now, it’s really hard to find deals, every seller I talk to says you are crazy, no way, what do you say to that, somebody who is kind of the ‘yeah, but-ers,’ what do you say to the ‘yeah, but-ers?’

Kathy:   All they are doing is procrastinating and not doing it, just because they don’t want to. I actually had one of my own students, the stellar in Seattle that I was telling you about earlier, that’s how our coaching started. Everybody out here is doing it. It doesn't work. I've been mailing this other letter when—I'm basically just telling, “Hey I want to buy your house at.” I said, well the first thing I need you to do is throw that in the garbage and start doing direct mail campaigns the way I'm trying to get you to do your direct mail campaigns.

The first thing you have to understand is that there is competition in everything that we do. However, there's not really any competition. You are going to get somebody who is going to mail a letter once and never mail it again, because as you and I both know there are investors out there who don’t follow up, who are not consistent, they are not doing the mailings the way they should. Even if they are, every person is doing it. Different neighborhood, a different mailer, a different area, they are wanting a different type of a deal. So really everybody is targeting a slightly different area, sellers, ZIP codes, whatever that is.

I've got 14 different mailings that I pick from, so my students have a lot that they can choose from when they are doing my mailings. They are not honing hard enough. They are not honing in deeply enough to find the really motivated sellers. When I finally got my gentleman in Seattle turned around, and he started doing direct mail campaigns the way I asked him to. Within three weeks, I got a letter from him that said, “Oh my gosh, Kathy, I had no idea. I'm getting more responses now than I ever got before.” Well, dah.

So part of it is, there's a lot of investors out there, and many of them are not consistent, and the ones who are they are targeting a certain seller in a certain area and maybe you are doing a different type of a seller, you are looking for a different deal in a different area. So, there's just not—there really isn't a lot of competition. There really isn't. If you put 30 investors in the same area, and tell all 30 of them, “Okay,” in one county for example, I mean do you know many different parts there are in just one county? So yeah, there really isn't.

Joe:  One thing your competition isn't doing is following up and calling these sellers back immediately. Your competition is going in slow motion.

Kathy:   Yeah, so your competition is between your ears really.

Joe:   Well, I think too it's important to realize that seller maybe getting a lot of postcards. But I bet you anything, I bet you a glass of iced tea, if you would have call 75% of those postcards, you would never even talked to anybody. You might leave a voicemail and you might hear back from them three four days later, that’s just the way it is. If you can answer the phones, if you can call sellers back and follow up with them you are already light years ahead of your competition.

Kathy:   Absolutely. And I've done that. And sometimes I’ll get a letter. I personally get letters from my own competition, in my own area all the time. I call the number, “I'm sorry this number is disconnected,” seriously. Because what happens is that and this is something that is really important about being consistent. If you are going to start doing direct mail the way that Joe and I are talking about folks, you need to get really, really serious about it. So you need to get an address where people can respond to you a year from now. You need to get an email address that you are solid with; you need to get a phone number that you are solid with.

Joe I had the same post office address which is a post office box and we tested and tested, and tested, makes no difference at all. Because folks what's going to happen is you are going to find a really awesome deal and you are going to want to move into it and that’s perfectly okay with me. So that’s why a post office address works great because it's always consistent, it's always the same address.

You got to have the same email address. Half of the investors that I know of, they change their email address like they change their socks. How can you be consistent? How can you be getting emails and responses from sellers six months from now or a year from now if you’ve changed your phone number, you address or your email 14 times? It doesn't work. That is another really important point that they need to write down and absorb.

Joe:   I think one of the reasons too Kathy why you are doing so many deals is you are not just a one size fits all trick pony, you offer multiple offers to sellers, am I right? I mean you have multiples ways to buy properties.

Kathy:   Absolutely and a lot of times, it's sometimes, sellers will contact us and they will say, “Please make your offer by mailing, I don’t want to talk to you.” Serious that they really do that. They really do that. So one of the things that we do is even as we respond to them by mail, we will give them multiple offers in their respond. I do that even when I'm talking to them on the telephone, I kind of fill them out. Fill them out, find out what their situation is. Shut your mouth and listen to your seller. Let them tell you and hear between the lines what they are trying to tell you and give them the same way that I give them multiple ways to contact me, we also give them multiple offers so that they have the option to pick what works best for them.

Joe:   Can you talk a little bit about that? What are the multiples offers you send?

Kathy:   Well, for example we can take a property subject to the mortgage, we can take a property, if there's a lot of equity, we can take it subject to a mortgage, and we can pay them some of the equity at the time that we sell the property. We can take a property from a seller on a lease option. We can pay them all cash now but it's going to be less. So there's a lot of different ways that we can customize that deal to meet that particular seller’s needs. If they own the property free and clear without a mortgage, we give them various options on how they can own and finance it in a way that’s most comfortable for them.

Joe:   Now, do you have simple way to down dirty, what was I trying to say– the other simple down and dirty to just come up with those offers really quickly? Do you have a spreadsheet, or you just figure out on paper, how do you come up with those offers?

Kathy:   Well, I kind of know it in my head now, but in the earlier days, I used the credibility kit that I created. So one day I actually sat down and made myself a cheat sheet of the various types of offers that I might want to make, and I included that with my credibility kit. Let me just make it—and so that’s the way that I do that. So I kind of know those offers off the top of my head. But if we have a newer student, they might want to use that cheat sheet that’s in that credibility kit. So that’s just another idea.

   What I was going to say is if you are making an offer to someone on the phone or you are responding to a letter that the seller sent you, one of the things that you want to do which a lot of folks don’t, and this is really important again, you have to understand these sellers have no idea who you are. They have no idea if you are legit; they have no idea if you are the real deal. And maybe they’ve gotten contacts from a couple of other investors. So when I get ready to make—to respond to that seller or make that offer to them, I give them what I call a mini-credibility kit and basically it's just a short piece of paper that basically says “Here's are some folks that you can call to check us out. Here’s the title company that I use, here's the private lenders that I use, here's the attorneys that I use. Here's my real estate attorney.” And let me tell you, in eight out of ten cases, they are calling and checking you out.

Joe:   So you are sending them something in the mail?

Kathy:   Yes. Or when I'm talking to them on the phone, I'm going to give them on the phone.

Joe:   Okay.

Kathy:   As a matter of fact, the lady that we closed on two weeks ago, I found out on Monday when my title lady called because my title lady and my real estate attorney are in the same office and she said, “I just wanted to let you know, she called everybody.” I was like, good. Because they know, I mean all of– what we've done is we developed a dream team. We work with the same crew every single time. It's the same insurance person, the same title company, the same inspection services, the same real estate attorneys, the same, the same, the same for every single deal we do and the same type of lenders and the private lenders get phone calls. They expect it and they know it if they know what happens.

And so they, “Yeah I work with her a lot. We loan her money all the time. If you are doing a deal with her, feel comfortable it's going to down just the way you’ve set.” So that’s another point that a lot of– so if the seller got responses from three different investors and you gave them a list of referrals, and they call them, I guarantee you are going to get a deal instead of those other two because they've had a chance to check out your credibility.

Joe:   So this is—what if the seller is not that motivated, are you still going to send them an offer in the mail and the credibility kit in the mail or is that just to people that you are actually sending a real offer to?

Kathy:   Those are people that we are sending a real offer to. If they are just not sure they don’t know, I'm going to put them in that follow up file and they’ll stay in that follow up file until they change their minds.

Joe:   Okay, that’s a great idea though, sending them a list of referrals. Are you a member of the Better Business Bureau? Do you put that in any of your referrals?

Kathy:   I am not. It doesn't make it. In my world, in the real estate investing, it doesn't seem to make a difference one way or the other. It’s not a bad thing, I'm just saying for us, it doesn't seem to make a difference one way or the other. What my sellers care about is can I close the deals. And so I give them the referrals that are important to them, my lenders, the title person, the real estate attorney, people that they can call, and count on to give them the information that they need after whether or not we can close.

Believe me Joe, it happens a lot. These folks, we have found, as time has gone on, that people are more, more suspicious, and they are getting more letters and things like that. And so sending them that little referral sheet just is opting the number of deals that we are doing. So we are simply stealing deals from our competitors all day long by having that one extra little tool in place. So that’s another jam on your call today.

Joe:   That’s very, very good advice. I've never done that before, sending a list of references.

Kathy:   And they absolutely will call and check you out. They want to know if you can close. They want to know if you are the real deal.

Joe:   Very good. I do have—I am part of the better business and I get a lot of people that search me and look for me there. So I know it's true that people do background searches, I mean they want to find out who you are, and see if there is any complaints against you. If you can have an attorney, an agent or a hard money lender, a private lender, insurance agent, that’s really, really good advice, maybe even a property manager that you work with.

Kathy:   Absolutely. We give them the property managers as well.

Joe:   Okay, kind of as we tied this up Kathy, can you talk about what are some mistakes that people need to be aware of, things to be careful of, mistakes to avoid for somebody who wants to start doing more direct mails, wants to start focusing more into that. What are some common mistakes that people make?

Kathy:   Okay, the most common mistake that people make straight upfront is mailing a post card instead of a letter. When you mail a post card you cannot give your seller enough information, you cannot tell them how you want them to follow up with you. There’s just not enough space there and people sort their mails over the trash can. When you send them a letter, the way that we send them and they are handed to us and all of that kind of stuff, they are curious. “Ooh who's that from.” And they are going to open that letter and look at it.

We will also use lump email sometimes. And when I use lump emails sometime Joe, I use a flat pen in my letters because they’ve got this response mechanism in there. Now they got the pen right on their hands to fill up the information I want and they are going to open the letter because they want to know what's in there. So that’s just another idea to get your letters open deeds more and more quickly.

Joe:   Good.

Kathy:   So that would be one thing. Not being consistent. That’s a huge one, getting the letters out there, not using the right list brokers, that’s another real mistake that I hear my students making. They are using lists that are old, they are not reputable, that sort of thing. And I cover that really extensively in my system, because the value of the list is huge when you are doing direct mail the way that we do it. So the consistency, using the right letters, using the right list, the follow up, that is huge as you and I both know. So those will be the biggest mistakes.

I remember when I was a newbie beginner and I would get this response from my desk and I, “Well that really looks like a deal, ooh come home later,” because I was afraid to talk to this seller. Talk to the seller. That’s one of the biggest mistakes I hear because the longer that letter stays on your desk, you want to get that seller when they are hot and heavy and ready to sell right now. They just responded to that letter. So if it looks like a good deal, get on and get it done. So that’s probably the biggest mistake too is just not responding to the sellers.

Joe:   That’s probably a lot more common than people realize. And that’s why we were talking before; a lot of the mails that sellers get are from beginning investors. They are taking their time; they are taking their sweet old time calling that seller back. I have a client in a very huge market in the southern part of the United States. He wishes to remain anonymous because he works for a big corporation. He's done like 22-23 deals in the last four, five months. He's in a very big market. Trust me it's competitive, right?

And he was telling me the other day, “Joe I thought I was in a competitive market but I'm really not. Because I'm not sending a tone of mail, I'm just sending,” I think he's sending about 700 to 1000 postcards a week. He said, “But guess what, I'm taking my– they are going to voicemail. He's calling them back within minutes. But he talks to sellers and they are like, “No one else calls me back. I get lots of mail. You are the only one who answers your phone. You are the only one that calls me back.” And he follows up with them. He’s very personal. He has a real company. They check him out. So that’s so important.

So again I'm just going to review these common mistakes that a lot of people make. Just sitting, they are not sending letters, they are sending postcards. I think I have always done really well with postcards and maybe I could do better with letters. I've not given them the chance and I should test it and I will. I'm going to start–

Kathy:   I'm sorry, the other part of it Joe between the letters and postcards is the fact that when the letter comes back it's prescreened. So that’s taking a whole another obstacle and a whole another step out of the equation for you. That’s the big one, the fact that it's prescreened when the response comes in.

Joe:   Well, I'm going to start doing that. I'm going to start. I'm not giving up on postcards but I'm going to start sending letters and I've seen your letters are really good. Okay, so that’s number one. Not sending, how about this, not sending the right mails. Not sending mail that works. And if you don’t believe Kathy, then you just got to test it. Bottom line, and don’t take our word for it. Don’t take my word for it that post cards work better or Kathy’s letters work better. Just test it yourself and you’ll find out for yourself what works best. That’s number one.

Number two, not being consistent, for sure. Not having—I like to give my students a scorecard that tracks every day, every week how much marketing they are going to do, how many sellers they are going to talk to, how many offers they are going to make. And if you can start being consistent with that every week, every month, that momentum is going to start building and you are going to start doing two to three deals a week only sending 1100 postcards or 11 letters a month.

Number three, not getting the right list, or not using the right list broker. And number four not following up. Kind of related to consistency but it is different. And I think number 5, not responding quickly enough when the seller call. That’s really good. Good, good. Anything else you want to add?

Kathy:   I was just going to say, it's just really important to get it done. Even when I m working with my coaching students, and you kind of referred to this, “How many letters did we send this week?” “Well you know I had this come up, and I had that come up, and I had this come up, and I that come up.” Stop doing that. One of the things that I teach is get the minutiae out of your life and get this stuff into somebody else hands very quickly. So I teach them how to get somebody else doing the work for them. And that's really, really important. The more quickly they can get that part of the business in someone else’s hand, the more deals they are going to start to make.

And so we have a variety of different ways to get the work done. They can do it themselves which is the last one. They can hire someone to do the work for them; they can use one of the companies to do the mailing for them. So there's a lot of different ways to get the work done. Biggest thing, they got to get the work done. And it's not that hard. It really isn't.

Joe:   Well, Kathy, this has been a great interview. There's a very good reason why they call you the direct marketing magic lady. Is that right? Is it direct marketing–?

Kathy:   It's marketing magic lady.

Joe:   Marketing magic lady.

Kathy:   Marketing magic lady.

Joe:   And I remember too Kathy when we were first— this is three years, man time flies. I remember putting a post on Facebook saying, “Hey we need more women on the show.” And we got a couple of dozen of responses and you were the most requested woman in all of those responses. “Get Kathy on the line. Get Kathy.” And this stuff I'm just—I'm really glad to see even in your business, the consistency. You’ve been doing this for years and years and years. And I think one of the reasons why you haven’t retired yet is because you are just having too much fun.

Kathy:   We all are. Unfortunately we all are, well fortunately. Hey, it's really great to get up in the morning and love what you do.

Joe:   It is. It is and to do it from anywhere in the world as well. I mean you could—you are buying homes all over Florida, you are helping students do deals all over the United States, here we are in Prague, we've Been here for three months, we are doing deals in three different markets. That’s St. Louis, Pinellas County, Florida and now Nashville, Tennessee. It's fun. It's a great time. I couldn't agree with you more when you said earlier there's not a better time than right now to invest in real estate. And I would have said the same thing three years ago on our last interview. This is like every time you—no matter whether the market is going up or down or it's hot or cold, direct mail works.

Kathy:   Oh absolutely. And what was really funny back then, even before our last interview when we went through that whole period of time where everybody was doing pre-foreclosure and short sales and all of that, we continue to keep our engine running and our machine continue to turn out deals with regular sellers. We were doing more deals because everybody was so busy competing for all of those pre-foreclosures that we were just taking all those other sellers for ourselves. So no matter what your real estate market is doing, direct mail creates a long term source of leads and a long term source of income for you.

Joe:   Very good. Now you guys have been hearing Kathy talk about her students. You’ve been hearing her talk about her course. I don’t know anybody else who has a more thorough complete system for direct mail than what Kathy has. And that’s why I've asked her to come on the show again. I want to encourage you guys to get a hold of Kathy. Kathy what is your website? How can people get a hold of you?

Kathy:   My website is www.marketingmagiclady.com, so www.marketingmagiclady.com or they can call our office directly as well, 9417925390 and when they go to the website, there's lots of great information there. There are interviews that I've done, there are articles on there. My different course is the marketing magic system that they are looking for, with regards to the direct mail. And it works.

Joe:   And guys when you are talking to Kathy, when you go to her website or call her office, make sure you tell her that you heard about her on this podcast. She will take special care of you, give you great deal. But I'm telling you this is well worth your investment. The amount of time and money that you will save in bad responses and bad lists and chasing the wrong kind of sellers, will more than make up for the cost of the system. It is an investment. It's super important. It's really, really critical. It’s just going to help you get there faster. I really believe that, so again marketingmagiclady.com. What were you going to say Kathy?

Kathy:   I was going to say, you reminded me, if they use, when they invest in my system, when they make that purchase, if they use promo code “magic” M-A-G-I-C, I have created a special discount for them just for use. So have them use the promo code “magic.”

Joe:   Excellent. And your phone number one more time Kathy for those that are driving.

Kathy:   9417925390.

Joe:   Excellent. And that will reach your office not your cell phone?

Kathy:   Correct.

Joe:   Okay. I'm hoping that you are not on the phone all day long with people calling your because I know you are going to get a lot of people interested in this.

Kathy:   Well I got to tell you, I’m so glad that you invited me on the call. You have no idea how much good input I hear about all over the country. Everywhere I go, I heard you on Joe McCall three years ago. I was really excited that you invited me back on the call again because I just had been hearing so much good input about you and your podcast. So whatever—folks you’ve got to appreciate Joe and everything that he does because you really do a super job and that’s all I hear everywhere I go.

Joe:   That’s awesome Kathy. Let’s not wait another three years before our next call.

Kathy:   Yeah.

Joe:   Let’s do it sooner than that.

Kathy:   That works for me.

Joe:   Good. So guys if you want to get the show notes, the transcription of this podcast, if you want to get the links that we talked about, the link to episode 31 where we interviewed Kathy before, you can get all that in the show notes at realestateinvestingmastery.com, and if you want more information about Kathy, go to marketingmagiclady.com. Make sure you mention that you heard about her on the podcast. She’ll give you a good deal, and take good care of you. Hey thanks again Kathy. I really appreciate it.

Kathy:   Thank you for having me. It was awesome. It’s always really great working with you.

Joe:   Good thanks. So guys listen, if you like the show, leave a review on iTunes please. If you don’t like the show, leave us a review on iTunes. Let us know what you think. Let us know and subscribe in iTunes. We really appreciate that. The more downloads we get. We've seeing an incredible increase lately in our downloads. It's been really cool to see, and we've got listeners in over a 160 different countries. It's so much fun. I enjoy doing this. I want to hear from you guys that you like the show as well. I know for Alex, Alex couldn't be on the call today, but we do appreciate the feedback and the comments that we get on the website and in iTunes itself. We hope to see you guys soon at www.realestateinvestingmastery.com. Take care Kathy, thanks again.

Kathy:   Thank you so much. Have a great day.

Joe:   Bye, bye.