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If you’ve been around real estate investing for any time at all then you’ve heard the term “driving for dollars”; and if you haven't, well we're gonna talk about that on the podcast today with my guest Zach Boothe. Zach started out washing windows back in 2011, but now he earns over $1,000,000 a year using his driving for dollars technique. Zach & I talk all about what exactly he's doing these days, how he's finding deals using the techniques that he spells out in his course. Zach is such a wealth of knowledge and experience and we have him cornered on the show today so we can pick his brain and get answers to my questions, and questions from the viewers!

I want to really, strongly suggest that if you want to look for a new avenue of getting profitable deals, Driving for Dollars is a great place to get started. We're going to be doing a webinar. It'll be live when we do it in a few weeks from the time we record this. But go to joemccall.com/zack and you will see the information on that webinar. If you're listening to this or watching it later, there'll be a replay there so don’t worry. And this is really good stuff guys. I mean, Zach is close to a million dollars this year in 2019 just from driving for dollars. This stuff really does work. We’ll be talking a lot more about the techniques on the webinar so don’t miss it; it’s going to be a lot of fun.

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Joe: Alright. What's up everybody? Welcome. Welcome. This is the Real Estate Investing Mastery podcast. Glad you're here. Hope you're doing well. I got a special podcast today. I'm going to be interviewing a friend named Zack who's doing a lot of driving for dollars and he's crushing it. He's making a ton of money, doing a lot of deals with driving for dollars. So, we're going to be interviewing him here in just a minute. A few housekeeping things here.

Joe: If you've not gotten my book yet, it's being released this week as I'm recording this. You can get it REIsecrets.com. REIsecrets.com and every chapter is about two to three pages long. Just talking about daily nuggets of real estate investing wisdom to help you get more leads, close more deals, make more money. And so, every little chapter is kind of like this inspirational thing that you can read once a day. Just get some, get some wisdom, get some inspiration and stuff like that. And all of these are came from my podcast; little things that I did called REI In Your Car podcast where I just shared some things that were working well for me, for my clients, for students, people that I'm interviewing and stuff like that.

Joe: And then you can get this book. It's free, just pay shipping and handling. And it's a real book. Look at that. It's about an inch thick. I'm excited about it. It's free. Just pay shipping and handling. The second thing I want to tell you, if you like the show, please go to iTunes and leave a review, leave a review, let us know what you like about it, what you don't like. I don't care. Just leave a review. It'd be nice. I appreciate it.

Joe: A final thing I'll say here is we're doing this live right now on YouTube and Facebook. So, when you comment in YouTube or in Facebook, it will show up on my screen here and I can, I'd love to say hi to you. So, give us a shout out, tell us where you're from. Say hello, tell us where you're from and then give us a thumbs up. Give us a like or something on this video. I'd really appreciate it. And yeah, and we're going to be interviewing our guest here too in just a second.

Joe: So, like Matt here. See that? What's going on, Joe? Thank you, Matt. Appreciate that. Not a lot is going on. It's been a crazy morning. I'm a little irritated right now to be honest. because of Zack. I'm going to be nice to Zack. Just so much is going on. I have not even had a chance to eat breakfast yet and it's 1250 and I'm hungry. It's been crazy. Anyway, Val, Nina, Davis, Russell from Atlanta. What's going on, man? 661Rick from Los Angeles. How are you doing? And Reed from Florida. Glad you're here. Nice. So, that's what happens. If you're watching this on YouTube or Facebook, give us a comment, tell us where you're from. Hello. And then please like or share this video as well.

Joe: All right, so let's get onto the show. I got Zack Boothe on. Zack, how you doing, sir?

Zack: I'm doing really good, Joe, thanks for, thanks for having me on. I'm looking forward to this.

Joe: Glad you're here. Yeah. You've, I've been hearing a lot about you. You've been crushing it, doing a lot of really cool things with driving for dollars. Right. And a lot of people have heard about it. A lot of people are doing it well and actually not a lot of people are doing it. But I'm hearing this over and over and over again from people. I just interviewed a guy yesterday, some of his favorite deals come from driving for dollars, but you've taken it to a whole nother level, haven't you?

Zack: I think so. Yeah. I actually had a David Lecko into our office and he said half of our marketing campaign is the biggest in the country that he sees so…

Joe: Serious? So, half of your, half of what you're doing is the biggest of what he's seeing.

Zack: Yeah. So, cause we're only running about half of our marketing channel through that app, because I want to test all the other apps just so I can be an expert in all of them. Right?

Joe: So, you're talking about David Lecko who created Deal Machine.

Zack: So, one of the most used driving for dollars to apps out there. Yeah. He came in and we were talking about his updates.

Joe: So, we're going to be talking about that. We're going to be talking about driving for dollars and I just realized something. All of you guys that are watching this on YouTube and Facebook, you're probably seeing a different headline. I forgot to update the headline. So, this is Zack Boothe, not whoever I was interviewing before. I forget his name. I'm sorry. So, I'll have to, I'll fix that later in YouTube and Facebook. So, I apologize. Zack. All right. So, cool. Talk about, how'd you get started in real estate, Zack?

Zack: Okay, so I actually bought my first deal, a duplex, I bought it in 2011. I lived in one side and rented the other side and I actually listed it this morning. It went live. Yeah, I listed to sell it. I bought it for $55,000 and it went under, it's not under contract, but it went listed for $240,000 today.

Joe: Good. And how did you get that deal?

Zack: It was just, you know, traditional, it was a bank foreclosure back after the recession, so I got a solid deal from it. And that was kind of like my first taste. It was my first taste of real estate. So…

Joe: And tell me again when that was.

Zack: That was 2011. Yeah. But I was, I was a window cleaner then and then like getting into fulltime real estate though, that didn't happen until kind of the end of 2016. I had the duplex in a single-family home at that time and I wanted to pick up more rentals. I had hired a coach, I found a seller finance deal and I had done a flip, but I lost money on the flip. I was just really struggling. Right, Joe? I was trying to get on my feet and you know, I was jumping in, but I was just, it was, it was hard, right? I didn't know what I was doing. And then what happened was in 2017 the very beginning in January, I hired another real estate coach that really got things going for me. And I went full time in March of 2017 in real estate.

Joe: March. Okay guys, this is less, a little more than two years. By the way, I just fixed the title of our, of this video. I’m really embarrassed cause it's called, this podcast is called how to do creative financing deals and lease options virtually in multiple markets. But that's not what we're going to be talking about. No, I just want everybody… Oh, you know what, hey, I can edit. Is it going to let me edit this? No. All right. I'm going to have to edit it after. No, here we go. Hold on, hold on. Boom. And I can tag you, Zack.

Zack: You're a wizard.

Joe: Let's see if that let, oh, it's not gonna let me, oh, there it is. Save. Boom. Okay, sorry. That was just bothering me. All right. So, it's been a little over two years now. A little over two years. So, what is your, what does your business look like now?

Zack: Yeah, so there were, we had a deal fund and record today that was a flip. About two weeks ago when I looked at, or a week ago, when I did my KPIs, we were at about $815,000 in revenue. And with what's closed this week, we're going to be barely over $900,000 for the year so far.

Joe: For the year so far, 2019.

Zack: 2019. Yep. So, first year 2017 we did. So, basically, I did my first deal. So, my first wholesale assignment, you know, my first creative deal through marketing to distressed properties. I did my first deal April of 2017 and I made about $10,000 on the deal. And so, it was proof of concept like, you can sell purchase agreements, you know, this is real. It's not just, you know, coaches selling a dream. And I did barely over a hundred thousand by the end of that year. And then 2018, I did about $450,000 in revenue. And I did all of that from driving for dollars.

Joe: So, how I made a hundred thousand dollars the first year was from the eviction list, some probate, a little bit from high equity from ListSource, but by the end of the year I was doing like a deal a month. And then I had like two months and then I did another deal and I like, I was just really tanking at the very beginning of 2018 and partly because my best lists, the cities got together and put up all of that data that's normally really hard to get from the cities and county places, they put it on one website, one state website. So, everyone is marketing to them. Okay.

Zack: And so, my, my contacts, you know, I had like one in 1.75% response rate to my postcards to those lists and it dropped below 1% overnight. Yeah. Yeah. So, it was a need, right. It was a barrier that I hit. I had to have a new marketing channel. And so, yeah, that's where driving for dollars started was, was 2018 because of that issue.

Joe: Now Deal Machine was around back then. Right? Is that when you started using it?

Zack: I didn't know that. I didn't know. I didn't know that. So, I actually, when I first started doing driving for dollars, I was actually driving around and like handwriting the addresses and I found an inspector and he was going around writing down addresses for me about houses and sending them to me. And then I, then I, I'm terrible with, with technology, I'm getting way better. So, I actually was handwriting them because it was way more convenient for me just to handwrite the stupid things than to put together an Excel spreadsheet. Right. Yeah. Nightmare.

Zack: What a nightmare it was in the beginning, but I did deals, actually, I did a couple deals that way. Handwriting letters.

Joe: Now did you skip trace and do any cold calling?

Zack: You know, we did cold calling about mid 2018 I hired Brent Daniels as a cold calling coach. And the funny thing about that is the first 11 minutes on the triple line dialer, right, Mojo, I had a lady like, yeah, I really want to sell it. Come on out. So, I hung up the phone, ran to her house, signed a contract and sold it the next day for $9,000. So, 11 minutes on the dialer. I was like, Holy crap. So, So, yeah, so we do postcards and we do cold calling heavily, so.

Joe: Okay. What do you prefer, where most of your deals coming from right now?

Zack: Mainly from the passive strategy. So, postcards.

Joe: Yeah. Could you share your average like response rate on your postcards thru driving for dollars? Do you know that?

Zack: Yeah. So, it's a little over one and a half. It's like 1.54 ish, somewhere around there. Last time I checked.

Joe: Okay, cool. All right, so I don't know if you said this or not. What market are you in right now?

Zack: Utah, Salt Lake City market.

Joe: Yeah, our mutual friends Sam said that you literally have driven or had somebody drive through every single street in Salt Lake City or in Utah.

Zack: So, pretty much the general population of Utah, right? So, you've got, you've got the Great Salt Lake and then you've got a mountain range called The Wasatch Front. And about 80% of Utah's population is sandwiched in that little strip of land. Right. And the rest of Utah is pretty uninhabitable. Right? You just have these little tiny, tiny towns. So, of the main metropolitan area of Utah, we drive pretty much the whole area. It's about 2 million people is our population here. And with one driver, we're hitting every single neighborhood that's about middle income to lower income housing. And we drive it every single six months. We drive all of it every six months with one driver, with our system.

Joe: I don't know if you guys realize, by the way, I just finally fixed all of the live videos. I'm so sorry cause I've not been watching you while you talk, but okay, here we go. So, you've, that's a lot of driving. So, maybe, maybe it works. That's why you keep on doing it.

Zack: Oh, it's working amazing. So, the cool thing is I did just shy of half a million right in 2018 and I had this, ever since I was a kid, I wanted to do $1 million in revenue, right? Never done it. And I was like, how do I, how do I take my investment company now and go from half a million to a million? It's like I have a marketing strategy that works, but we were literally driving our entire market by the end of 2018 I was like, I don't know how I'm going to double a business when the marketing strategy that I'm using is tapped out. And I was like, well, maybe I can open up another market. Maybe I could start picking up more properties and holding more and do, you know, try and build net worth.

Zack: And, I didn't know. I didn't really know the next step. And what happened was a good buddy of mine in November invited me to be accountability partner in a self-help journal called Living Your Best Year Ever by Darren Hardy.

Joe: I heard of that. Yeah.

Zack: Yeah, it was, it was pretty awesome because you make three big goals for the year. And one of those big goals I had made was a financial goal of putting $1 million in my business. I want to do $1 million in revenue. And I had no idea how to do that. But in the, in the book, first hundred pages, it talks about the importance of giving away whatever you want to receive. And so, I took it seriously. I was like, Hey, I'm going to give away $1 million. How do I give away $1 million when I don't have $1 million?

Zack: And, and so what happened was the idea kind of came to just put a million dollars in other investors' businesses by teaching them my marketing channel. It's like, well, shoot, I could do that, right? I could, I could give them the step by step system. You know, I made all these mistakes. They don't have to make them. And so, I brought on some beta testing students, paid me a couple thousand each, and we just kind of dug into their business. I'm sure you know some of my original students, you probably know… Do you know Michael McLeish?

Joe: Yes. Yeah.

Zack: So, Michael McLeish was my very first student and it's kind of crazy because his main marketing channel, you should reach out to and talk to him about it, but his main marketing channel was the unknown equity in ListSource. Yeah. And he's in the Carolinas and as you probably know, in the end of 2018 they shut down his marketing system. ListSource was no longer available in that market. So, when he was trying to buy his list again, so he went, he had about a three hundred and something thousand-dollar income business set up and he went to zero because he had no more marketing, proven market channel.

Zack: And in 2019, I interviewed him back in July and July he had already surpassed his 2018 revenue with the driving for dollar system that we put in place for him. Yeah. So, basically, I brought in these students and with their help and critique, you know, it completely, like they would ask me questions and things that I had never thought about. I had found, I found so many mistakes by teaching. I truly became the student when I started teaching and it completely changed my business. And that's why I became a coach was because, you know, it was so rewarding. I found a purpose. It was so much more than the money… It was, it was incredible. So, it was very life changing.

Joe: It's one of the big reasons why I love coaching as well. All right. So, let's talk about what it is that you're doing, right? You're, you're driving for dollars. I imagine, like you said, you were doing a lot of this yourself. When did you realize I gotta get somebody else to do this for me?

Zack: Very early in the process, right? Because I was, I was doing all the, all the appointments and all the disposition. I was pretty much a one man show when I first started doing this. And, the way I started is I started, you know, offering people a percentage of all the deals that I did and which was a huge mistake. The first six months of doing this where I brought on other drivers and paid a commission, I can calculate that I overpaid them $70,000 compared to how I compensate my drivers now… in just six the first six months. Huge mistake. So, I quickly found some people driving and we were doing deals, but you know, the profitability now versus then is as much different.

Joe: Do you mind sharing, what were you paying them then and what are you paying them now?

Zack: So, when I first started, I didn't know about the apps, I was paying them 20%. So, everything that they sent in they were, they were just looking it up, County records and putting it on an Excel spreadsheet.

Joe: So, they were doing the research also, right? Yeah, they were, they were finding them and then putting the data in. But then we found an app and the app got around to them. So, they started using the app, sending me the Excel spreadsheet through the app. Right. So, I was paying them 20%. They weren't doing any of the data research. So, they were going from finding, you know, a few properties an hour to finding 20 to a hundred properties an hour. Yup.

Joe: Less than 1% of the deal. So, are you paying them… because this is a question a lot of people get with bird dogs? Like, how do you get away with paying them out of a deal if they're not licensed, right?

Zack: So, I don't, I don't pay them that way anymore. Okay?

Joe: All right. I was going to ask you that. So, is it now you're just paying them for every lead they bring you? So, they're just like a marketing service?

Zack: I actually pay them a combination of things. There's a, there's a partial flat fee per deal. There's, there's an hourly amount and then I also compensate for gas if they hit goals. So, it's a variation of how it's compensated and it seems a little complicated the way I compensate people, but you don't need a bunch of drivers. Like I said, I do a 2 million population with one driver and he only drive three days a week. Like I don't, yeah, so you don't, you don't have to have like a ton of drivers. Like most people think you have to have this giant team.

Joe: Yeah, that's what I thought.

Zack: Yeah. But you don't, like you really don't. The technologies today and, and how it's set up, it's, it's quite amazing. So.

Joe: We did a driving for dollars deal in Birmingham, Alabama with one of our students and the student, the client hired somebody to drive for dollars and they, in their ad advertised we'll pay you $20 an hour to drive for dollars for us, regardless of like, it just didn't matter. Like, good for him. He was like, I'm just gonna I'll figure it out later. But he got tons and tons of responses. People love the idea of just driving around for $20 an hour. And, it didn't matter if he ever found a property or not, there's just gonna be driving. Well anyway, luckily for us though, this person, the driver found a property on their first day and we've flipped it. I think we made 20 something thousand dollars, Gavin would know better cause then he realized, yeah, I don't know if paying an hourly rate of $20 an hour is a good idea or not. Maybe it is. I mean, what, on average, what are your drivers making?

Zack: $20 an hour. $20 an hour.

Joe: $20 an hour? But that's if, but like it's not just driving, like there has to be some leads that they're finding. Right?

Zack: So, we pay them, like I said, not a portion, but we pay them a flat fee per deal they bring in. So, there's an extra incentive. Plus, we compensate for gas if they tag the goal amount per week. The other benefit…

Joe: Then all of that works out to average $20 an hour?

Zack: No, no, no, no. $20 an hour plus all the other stuff.

Joe: Ah, okay. So, we weren't that far out of line.

Zack: Yup. Yeah, you weren't that far and then what you said, people love that idea. So, we tested, we tested where to find these people and how to get the best response. So, Scott, one of my students, actually his very first driving for dollars sale, he did a double closing at $113,000 profit. So, Scott was also one of my first students. He's an amazing guy, he's up in Portland, Oregon, and he really helped me figure out where to post and how to post. I've actually got his exact, in my courses, exact template for posting an ad position and his first ad posts, he had over a hundred applications. So, so we have that as part of the course.

Zack: The cool thing too though is, so I had, I have a lot of experience in the window cleaning world, you know, not that much to brag about, but I completely understand the difference between an industry that people aspire to be in and the industry that they, you know, it's a job, right? My window cleaners did not aspire to be window cleaners the rest of their lives. Right? They hated it. It was just a job. They hated me. They just wanted the money.

Zack: But with real estate investing in real estate, it's an area, it's a field where people are excited to take an entry level job because they're excited to learn. They're excited to be a part of that. And so, a lot of the ways that we find great drivers is we let that be that entry level job. And so, we find people that are capable of taking bigger positions in our company. We do the same thing with our cold calling team. We put someone in that position that has the capability to one day be an acquisition manager or to, you know, to help in a bigger capacity within our company.

Joe: Nice. So, these aren't just bird dogs, these are part of your team; they're almost like employees.

Zack: Oh yeah. They come to our weekly meeting and you know, we talk about the deals that we're doing because of them. We talk about criteria and everything else. So, it's, they are very much a huge part of our team.

Joe: Now we need to talk to Tom. Tom Kroll is trolling us right now. He said, Rhinos, check this out. And Tom, you spelled bam B A M. There's, this sounds like baaaa, like a sheep or something.

Zack: Tom Kroll is my hero. He's a, you know, he was that coach that really got things going for me. So, he's like…

Joe: Was he the coach that you hired before?

Zack: Yep. He was the coach that I hired back in the beginning of 2017 so, changed my life for sure. He's still changing my life. And, he's helping me with a lot of, a lot of the things that I'm doing as a coach now.

Joe: Yeah, Tom Kroll's a good guy. I've been friends with him for a long, his brother for longer. I was just talking to Tom yesterday. I needed some help with something and I called him up and he gave me some great advice. It's good to have friends like that, isn't it? All right. So, that's pretty cool. Now are you looking to go into other markets outside of Utah or are you, are you content there?

Zack: No, I'm good. I, you know, we're, we actually just picked up a lease option property last week and we're going to start trying to build up a portfolio. I don't know if you've heard of Pace Morby down in Arizona, intelligent, intelligent guy. I went to an event in Florida and he's, he's looking into doing coaching as well and we were kind of networking and he shared some information in how he's structuring his business and, and so, you know, I'm planning on building a bigger portfolio and, and building my net worth with my investment company and I don't have any intention of expanding to other markets at this point.

Joe: So, now you are you buying and holding properties as lease options?

Zack: So, yes, that is a definitely another strategy. I heard you speak in Asheville and talk about lease options and sandwich lease options and my mind was just like, BOOM. That's amazing, right? Because a lot of times people, you may have like a VA loan or here in Utah, like a Utah housing loan and they're not as comfortable with letting you take over the mortgage. And so that lease option is a huge opportunity. So, yeah, that stuff is amazing. Yeah, we're definitely using that as well.

Joe: So, what percentage of your deals are you wholesaling, what percent right now are you just holding?

Zack: So, Tom Krol actually invited me to get out of all debt that has recourse that has a personal recourse. So, that's why I'm selling that duplex and I've sold off a few other properties that I've owned. So, I actually had a bunch of rentals. I've sold them all off, the duplexe is the last one I have and we just started taking over these ones.

Zack: So, this is our first subject to that we're going to hold. We've been, we've been assigning or closing and flipping pretty much everything for the last eight months.

Joe: Nice. You know, I was just thinking about licensing issues, right? Because we were talking about bird dogs and all that. Do you have your real estate license?

Zack: I do not.

Joe: Okay, cool. Are you have running into challenges with not having your license in Utah?

Zack: Yes… yes and no. I mean, I know that the, I have a really great real estate attorney. I run all of the things that I do past the real estate attorney. So, if you guys start an investment company anywhere in the country, make sure you, you have an attorney that you run all your contracts through and everything that you're doing in your business.

Zack: But I do know that, I do know that the division of real estate in any market, you know, they make sure that people follow the laws and they're not taking advantage of people. And there's definitely a lot of laws around listing and buying and, you know, representing people. And so I'm making sure I follow those laws; so I can't speak for other markets cause I'm not, I'm not as much of an expert in those. But I do know in Utah they've had some issues with some wholesalers, you know, people that are assigning purchase contracts that are real estate agents. They are making certain regulation and laws around that. And so, yeah, it's definitely been, the division of real estate in Utah has definitely been a hard on wholesalers recently.

Joe: It's not a problem if you're closing on the deals, right? And getting some money to close on the deal, doing a double close, use hard money if you have to or whatnot. There's not any issues with that at all. It seems like, yeah, you know, a lot of states are cracking down. I just was reading an Idaho, going through their state statutes from the real estate commission and it's pretty insane what they're saying. Like, they're even calling out lease options specifically that you can't even do sandwich lease options where you're staying in the middle without a real estate license.

Joe: But you know what, there's really easy, there's always not a way around things, you know, like, but there's always good ways to work through things. And so, for years I've said, let's stop fighting the realtors, right? Let's just, let's just do what we're supposed to do. It's not a big deal, right? So, like, number one, close on the deal, right? Then, double close on it and sell it. If you're doing a lease option and you're staying in the middle, just hire a realtor to market the home for you and find a tenant for you because that's one of the first things you should be outsourcing anyway.

Joe: As an investor, if you're not licensed, you shouldn't be the guy that's taking all the calls and showing the tenant properties to the tenants. Just hire a realtor to do it for you. It's not a big deal. And that's a huge amount of work that you can get off your plate so that you can go make more offers, talk to more sellers, buy more deals, you know, things like that. And if you have to get your license, then go ahead and get it. It's not a big deal. That's what I tell people. I've had my license probably six, seven years now. David here has a comment: Issues here in Illinois, even with double closings will be difficult. Getting my license in November. Ah, okay, cool. The other thing I was reading about in Idaho, they were saying, even if you're a realtor and you're buying houses by owner and you're selling houses by owner in Idaho, you have to do those deals through your broker.

Joe: Which I was like, you know, that's gotta be challenged in court someday. Like there's no, how can a real estate commission, if you're buying and selling your own properties, why are, how could they require that you have to do the deal through your broker? They said though you don't have to do it as a listing. It doesn't have to be a listing, but your broker still has to review the paperwork. And then, then the question becomes, and here I am talking about this, we're supposed to be talking about driving for dollars, but this has been something I've been thinking a lot about. Go ahead and use the realtor’s contracts if that's a big deal to you. If you're licensed. The realtor’s contracts are good contracts.

Joe: So, anyway, I don't know how I got onto that rabbit trail. Maybe because I haven't had breakfast or lunch yet and it's 1:15pm. So, Zack, the driving for dollars stuff. You, you, there's other software out there, there's about two or three apps that I found on the app store for driving for dollars. Did you, are you using those or do you have your own software that you've created? What do you have now?

Zack: It's kind of funny cause I was going to build an app two years ago when I really started this, you know, I was going to hire, actually put a deposit on a, on a developer and so glad I didn't so go ahead. Oh yeah, what a nightmare and rabbit hole that would have been. But so, there is Deal Machine which I highly suggest, you know, if you want to go out and get started on that, I do have a discount code, that I can, I can share. It's pin, p-I-n. So, that's a great way to go get started. If you want to get started today, just download that app Deal Machine. It is by far the best app. They have the best customer service. They have the best updates that they've made to it. It's truly 100% a business that they are pushing. So, I know the founders, I know the developers, great guys, and there's, there's a few other apps.

Zack: So, there's the second best I would say is Driving for Dollars app. It used to, it used to be the best and then they've made some adjustments and I don't want to say too much and get them really upset with me, but…

Joe: They will be fixed. They will be fixed soon. I'm sure there's, those are good guys there.

Zack: Yeah, they're, a good app; there's some things there though. And then there's another one called DriveBuy REI. That ones I would highly suggest one of the other two. And then, there's another one that kind of is a driving for dollars app, but that one is not worth it.

Joe: So, what do you guys use?

Zack: We use Deal Machine 100% at this point.

Joe: Okay. Cool. Do you have other software that you've created though on your own side of things to help manage the leads that come from there to manage them in house?

Zack: So, we did. We had, so one of the big issues that you have in a driving for dollars marketing system and hiring people is managing that driver, make sure he's driving in the right areas, making sure he's not driving on top of where he's already driven. Making sure he redrives each area every six months. Make sure you know that, you know, if you don't trust the guy or you don't know the guy well enough, I can't tell you how many thousands of dollars I've spent on marketing to properties that were pending while the dude was probably laying in his bed. Right?

Zack: So, managing those kinds of things was a nightmare in the beginning because we had to have a master map, right? So, we had to have a map that, where they had driven when they drove there, where to redrive, and then also to make sure they're actually out there driving. So, we had built out a software system to do all that, but we don't need it anymore because Deal Machine's come through with some updates in the last two or three months that all of that stuff is all in one place now. So, it's wonderful. It's beautiful. It's helped on all that It works amazing. Yeah, it's great.

Joe: Great. Very good. Alright, so let me ask you a question, Zack, if you were pulled out of Utah, dropped in the middle of nowhere, North Dakota, all right? And you didn't have to do deals in North Dakota, but you, you like, you were stuck out in the middle of nowhere and you couldn't go home. Are you married?

Zack: I am married.

Joe: Kids?

Zack: Two.

Joe: Awesome. All right. You couldn't go home to see your wife and kids until you made $10,000. All right? Okay. What would you do? Would you do driving for dollars? Would you do something else? And where would you pick a market? And it couldn't be in Utah. It had to be outside of Utah, somewhere. Anywhere.

Zack: Could I… So, I've dropped in the middle of nowhere nowhere? And, do I have to do them virtually?

Joe: You can do them in in North Dakota if you want. I don’t know, Fargo? Okay, let's say they drop you off in Fargo and…

Zack: I would start with where I am. Right. So, if I get dropped off in this little tiny market, I would start where I am. There would be two things that I would do. I would immediately start my marketing for cash buyers. And then second, I would start my marketing for finding motivated sellers. So, there's a TV show on the History channel, it's called Undercover Billionaire. Have you seen…?

Joe: Oh, I love that. Yeah, I was just thinking about that. Yeah.

Zack: So, awesome. So, what he teaches in there, so if you haven't seen that, that's, that's super entertaining. Tom told me about this actually. So, the dude gets dropped off. He's like living in a car, he's a billionaire and they drop him off in the middle of nowhere. He's like sleeping in his car. He gets 100 bucks and he's just supposed to turn it into a business worth $1 million in 90 days. Okay? So, that's the story.

Zack: And one of the things that he teaches is the importance of finding a buyer before you ever build a product or find something or offer anything. So, what he does is he goes to like Craigslist and finds what people are wanting to buy and then he goes and scavenge and trying to find those things because he already has a buyer lined up and he said it's opposite of what most people think.

Zack: You think that you need to find a deal or a product or, you know, a service before you ever have a buyer. The importance of buyers. I'd find a buyer. Second, I would start the marketing. I would kind of probably start them simultaneously because it's going to take you a minimum of three weeks before you have a purchase agreement. Because you have to go out and drive, right. Add those properties in the Deal Machine app and then I would start reaching out to them. If I had had any kind of a budget, I start with postcards. I mean simultaneously calling those people.

Zack: If I had zero money, I'd be knocking on their doors. On the very bad properties, I'd be knocking on the neighbor's doors. Actually, did this the other day. Last week we closed a deal though I found because I was driving home from the gym and there was this house, like completely abandoned. I was like, eeeerrr, stop, you know, and went and knocked on the neighbor's door, got the phone number and my acquisition manager called them. They're up in Wyoming, inherited property, we made, it was, it was small. It was only like seven grand we made on that deal. But but it was, you know, on the way home from the gym and it was a nice $7,000.

Zack: But anyways, so I would, I would make sure I stayed super proactive, talk to as many people as I possibly could about their properties. And then, and then I would go find a real estate attorney. Once you have a seller that's interested, then I would go to the attorney, get your purchase agreements and your assignment contracts and sell it to one of your buyers.

Joe: Let's say you had a couple thousand dollars. All right? Okay. And, um, I love the hustle and knocking on doors, right? But, let's say it's, it's there's 12 feet of snow in Fargo North Dakota. And by the way, the population in that County is about 200 and something thousand, in that big MSA, two hundred and something thousand. So, it's decent size and you can definitely do deals there. But you've got a few thousand dollars that you can maybe not have to go knocking on doors. So, you can now pay a driver. Maybe you can do some direct mail, you can do some skip tracing and… So, what would you do then?

Zack: Well, I would lose that hunger, right? Cause I want to see my family. Yeah, I would… So, what I teach my students, what I would say I would do for sure is I would do the driving in the beginning on my own. Just to get that first step going. I would set a weekly goal of how many properties I'd want to add and then make sure the marketing goes out. So, if you only have a couple thousand dollars in marketing or $1,000 a month in marketing, there's a way to know how many properties you can add to hit your budget in marketing, between postcards and cold calling. So, if I have, if I have $2,000 a month, I can tag roughly, if I want to cold call and text, I could add about 1,075 properties that month. So, I break that down per week. I would tag that many properties each week, I'd get them into the mailing sequence. And then hopefully by month two when the second round goes to that same list, I've already generated revenue off that first round to be able to up my marketing costs to the same…

Joe: Why would you do postcards? Why wouldn't you just maybe you know, you're hungry, you gotta go to your family. Why don't you just in the evening, handwrite 50 yellow letters every night?

Zack: So, I've tested, I've tested a variation of mail. You get a better response rate from writing, but I think that your time is better spent cold calling than writing letters. If you want to write letters while you cold call? I would highly suggest cold calling. Cold calling is extremely cheap cause you can, you can buy phone numbers for crap. I can't remember. I think it's like, like 18 cents, 18 cents a phone number?

Joe: What do you, who do you use?

Zack: I use Batch Skip Tracing. Okay. So, I've got a discount code. It's DFD to get that pricing. And so, you can go get those phone numbers for 18 cents a phone number. And then on top that you can get Mojo Dialer. And so, like if you just try and call by hand, you're going to barely call anybody. But if you get Mojo Dialer, it's a very cheap monthly subscription where just one person can be dialing at a time, right? If you're on your own and you can dial three numbers at one time, right? So, the way it works is if someone answers why you're on the phone, you can record a message and I have it go, "Hello, hello, my phone isn't working… call you back" and I have it hang up. Right? And then immediately calls them back and say, "Hey, sorry about that. My phone's not working. So, great. Anyways, I was reaching out to you because I was wondering if blah, blah, blah, blah” Right.

Joe: So, that's a great point. So, you could be doing the handwriting yourself or you could be hiring somebody, but that time and money might be better spent just doing postcards, cheap postcards. And dialing. Yeah. Using that phone. Okay, cool. So, you'd go find buyers and there's different ways we could talk about that, but that's pretty simple, right? You could go find some buyers, find out what they're looking for, what price ranges are they looking for. You would start driving for dollars, right? And you're driving around, you don't know this area. Would you be, what kind of neighborhoods would you be going into and looking at first?

Zack: So, in my course, I break down like all these strategies that Joe is talking about like all this is in the course, step-by-step. Start here, start here, start here. Right? But what I would do to find those areas of what I talk about in the course is finding your hot zip codes and there's an activity and, I think this is actually came from you. I learned this from Tom, but I think it originally came, it went from you to Tom to me. Is that, is that what happened?

Joe: Yeah, I was teaching how to do that back in 2011 on ListSource.

Zack: Love it. Yeah. So, there's an option. You can find your hot zip codes through ListSource. And I talk about that in the course. And then also like you talked about talking to your cash buyers, your cash buyers are going to tell you like, oh man, I love to flip houses in this city or this zip code or this County. So, your cash buyers, as you're adding them… It's really smart. Hey look, I'm doing marketing. Where would you like me to emphasize my marketing dollars for me to find you deals, right?

Joe: So, you would target those main zip codes first?

Zack: Yeah, because you're what, what's your goal? You're providing flips for flippers, right? So, find them a flip where they want to flip and you've got a buyer, you're done, right? So, what are you looking for? What kind of houses are you looking forward? So, I actually have a cheat sheet. We probably should have talked about this before; and it gives all the criteria and what to look for. So, in the beginning, like I said, one of the biggest mistakes I made is I was only tagging the properties that had like boarded up windows, obvious, vacant, obvious, you know, druggies living in the house kind of thing. Right? It wasn't…

Zack: Now it's any physical signs of neglect because what you're trying to do as an investor is, you're trying to find someone that wants to sell their house for speed and convenience. You're trying to find someone that is emotionally detached to their house, right? You're not trying to find someone that they look at their house like a home. Right? This is my home. I love this place. And they keep the flowers nice. And the grass trimmed and there's no peeling paint, it's beautiful, right?

Zack: So, anything that has physical signs of neglect, we're tagging it. So, sometimes like we'll pull up the house and we'd be like, man, this one's not that bad. You know, this is rent ready. Like this is great property. I just close on it and resell it to the retail market. Right. But sometimes there's usually something, right? Whether it's peeling paint or some missing shingles, broken one broken window, maybe the yard's dead where, you know… But everything else on the house looks fine. And so, those are the things we look for is just any physical signs of neglect. And I have that cheat sheet and maybe we can figure out how to give that to your audience.

Joe: How about we, well, we're going to be talking about this webinar. How about we give it away to people who go to the webinar? Can we do that?

Zack: Let's do that. That's a great idea.

Joe: Yeah. All right. So, you're just looking for properties that need work that… But not like before it was boarded up completely overgrown. Now you're looking for maybe smaller signals of needing some extra work and care. All right, good. I got some questions for you from folks here. This is from Mike on YouTube. How do you start your routes when driving for dollars? I am not sure what he means by that. Do you understand?

Zack: Yeah, he's just wondering like where we go and everything else. So, what I'm going to say to that is every market's different, right? City planners aren't all created equal. So, the wonderful part of living in Utah is a very gridded system, right? The neighborhoods are very developed on grid system. It gets, it's very well organized and a lot of the cities out West, you have that, not all of them, but like I know the Carolinas, you know, I know this because of Michael, like he struggles to find over 20 houses per hour with his drivers where we're finding in the upper range of like 80 per hour to even a hundred per hour.

Joe: Just because of the way the streets are laid out is what you're saying?

Zack: How the streets are laid out, how big the lots are sometimes. Like sometimes there are these windy streets and there's like a long driveway, a wooded driveway, and you can't even see the house. You've got to drive up the wooded driveway, pull around, and then go to the next corner. Right. So, yeah. And so, you know, picking routes is something you have to figure out in your own market. So, it just depends on where you're at.

Joe: Good. Good. Got another question here from Gabe on YouTube. Do you scrub the driving for dollars list before you market to them?

Zack: So that's the beauty of the Deal Machine app, right? So, when you tag the property it's essentially… You can do it two ways. You can take a picture of the house and it'll upload to an Excel spreadsheet for you and you could send a postcard with a picture through Deal Machine. There's lots of different things Deal Machine does that we don't necessarily always use. You can also export that list that you create.

Zack: Oh, I didn't say the second way you can create the list instead of taking the picture is there's like a Google maps image and you hold your finger on the house and it drops a little pin, a little dot on the house. And then you can import that data into that Excel spreadsheet. And then you can export, so you take that out and do an Excel spreadsheet and then you can send it to your postcard company. If you're going to hire an outside postcard company or you can send it to Batch Skip Tracing like I said, and get phone numbers for it. I know Deal Machine, you have the ability to buy phone numbers and cards, but their pricing is extremely high compared to what I can get you guys.

Joe: So, yeah, Mike Cooper has a follow-up question. I'm driving for dollars, but it's just me driving around the city with no game plan. From a strategic standpoint, how should I drive for dollars and be more effective?

Zack: Join my course, bro!

Joe: Which is a great lead way into it. Thanks a lot. All right, so listen, I'm doing a webinar with Zack and talk about this webinar really quick. If you want to go register for this webinar, joemccall.com/zack. Now you can spell Zack either way, Zach or Zack, right? But, you know, people are listening to this thinking, man, I don't want to drive for dollars. I want to do more leads. I'll just buy the app, right? Whatever the app is. But you know, talk about why there's more involved than just going out and buying the app. You got to know what you're doing with it, right?

Zack: Yeah, very much so. Like I said, Deal Machine has a lot of options and we don't use all of those options. You know, how to compensate your drivers, how to manage your drivers, how to find the best drivers to hire. You know, where to send, you know, how to send postcards, how often you send the postcards, how often you redrive those areas. What are some of the other huge things that I've learned and mistakes I've made? Cold calling, cold calling script, you know, all of those different strategies. It's all set up step-by-step from A through Z in there.

Joe: Yeah. So, good. We're going to be doing a webinar in a few weeks from now as we're recording this. But even if you're listening to this podcast or watching this video later, if you go to joemccall.com/zack, you will see either the invitation to watch the live webinar or the replay of the webinar that we're going to do together. And when they come to watch the webinar, we're going to give them this checklist you were talking about, right, Zack?

Zack: So, we're gonna, we're going to go through, we're going to give you guys the free criteria or the cheat sheet is what I call it. It's a game changer, you know? That one change made me go from one deal a month to one deal a week.

Joe: And these are the little things that you're looking for in these deals that you were just kind of ignoring before. It's like a checklist of what you're looking for in properties, right?

Zack: Yeah. Like I said, I was, I was finding one deal out of 400 properties I tagged. Now I was finding one out of 1500 to, or sorry, one out of 2,500 properties I'd tag. But the thing is I was tagging that many per week. So, I went from, you know, one a month to one a week. It completely changed my business. Completely changed.

Joe: Good. So, we're going to be doing this webinar. It'll be live when we do it in a few weeks from now as we record this. But go to joemccall.com/zack and you will see the information on that webinar. If you're listening to this or watching it later, there'll be a replay there. And this is really good guys. I mean, Zack is close to a million dollars this year in 2019 just for driving for dollars. This stuff, it really does work. I'm excited about it and I'm looking at the more comments here we've got. We've got some people saying hello, telling me where they're from. Glad you got here. Richie from Baton Rouge. Phillip from San Diego. What's up Glenn Matheeney. John from San Antonio.

Joe: Alright, so we got to, we got to skedaddle but I want to encourage you guys to come to the webinar. It's going to be good. Zack is going to be diving deeper into what exactly he's doing, how he's finding leads and he's got a fantastic course. I want to really strongly suggest if you want to look for a new avenue of getting profitable deals, driving for dollars, and you know, you don't think… Don't make the mistake of thinking that, well now everybody's talking about it. Everybody's doing it. It doesn't work that way. It really does work. And, I've talked to people all the time on this podcast that I've been interviewing…

Joe: Just yesterday I was asking our guests like, what is the best way for you to find deals? And he said, driving for dollars is the first thing he said right then and there. I'm getting that a lot from the Masterminds I'm in, the people that I'm interviewing on the podcast. So, this is really a timely webinar and I want to encourage you all to go get it right now. Joemccall.com/zack and if you registered for the webinar, you will be getting a free checklist that he's talking about of what you're looking for when you're getting these deals. Cool.

Joe: Zack, anything you want to add to that?

Zack: No. Just thank you guys. You know, you're, by tuning in and jumping onto this, you're allowing me to fulfill a purpose that I found in my life. So, thank you and I hope to bless your life and help you grow your business. So, thanks so much.

Joe: Awesome, Zack, thanks. Thanks for being on the show. Thanks for putting up with my looking around as I was trying to fix the title of this video while you were talking. Appreciate it. Thanks, Zack. Thanks, everybody.

Joe: Hey, by the way, if you're watching this podcast or listening to it, if you want the links that we've been sharing with you, all of the links in the show notes and the transcript for this podcast will be at my website. Joe McCall. I'm sorry, realestateinvestingmastery.com realestateinvestingmastery.com and you'll get all the show notes, transcripts, listen to the audio, watch the video even at realestateinvestingmastery.com. Cool.

Joe: Alright, I think we've got one more question or comment here. Okay, Alex, I'll answer that later. Gabe, I'll answer that later. We got to go. All right guys. Joemccall.com/zack. Go watch the webinar. We'll see you guys later. Take care. Thanks, Zack.

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