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  • 1327 » The Leadership Competency You’re Neglecting That’s Costing You Millions with Mike McCloskey

Here, Mike McCloskey joins me to talk about leadership. We're going to be talking about the importance of leadership, the challenges that a lot of folks have, and how to become better leaders in our businesses, families, society, and the community around us. What Mike has to share is really powerful and he’s been a leader in the corporate world for a long time.

I always like getting perspective and feedback from people outside of the real estate world who work with bigger companies. A big company in our real estate world is maybe a company that makes $1 million a year, right? But guys like Mike work with companies that do 50 to 100 million dollars a year. If you’re new to real estate, this is going to be super important for you to understand. Even if you don’t want to run a massive company, leadership skills are still relevant.

Listen and learn:

What’s inside:

  • The six core competencies of great leaders
  • Tips on how to lead through conflict
  • How to lead and coach employees to peak performance

Mentioned in this episode:

Download episode transcript in PDF format here…

Joe:  What's up guys? Joe McCall, the Real Estate Investing Mastery Podcast, I'm glad you're here. This is also my YouTube channel. Today we're going to be talking about leadership. We're going to be talking about the importance of leadership and the challenges that a lot of folks like you and me have with our own leadership and where our areas that we can improve to become better leaders in our businesses and our families and society and the community around us. And I got a special guest. His name is Mike McCloskey. This guy has been around for a long, long time. He's a real good friend of mine because I know his brother. I've known his brother since I got started in real estate way back in 2007. His brother Shaun helped me get started in the business. We're still good friends today. Shaun and I live about five minutes apart and Mike, his brother, was speaking recently at a leadership now what was it called? Business Vision Workshop. And I've heard and seen Mike speak many times. And don't tell Shaun this, Mike, but you're a better speaker than him.

Mike:  Here we go, here we go.

Joe:  Yeah, here we go. Yeah. Anyway, so. But what Mike had to share was really powerful. And every time I've heard him speak, I'm like, man, that's really good. So after he presented at this last workshop, he said, hey, could you be on my podcast? Let's talk about some leadership things, because Mike has been a leader in the corporate world for a long time. And so I always like getting the perspective and feedback from people that are outside of the real estate world that are understanding that work with bigger companies. I mean, a real estate, a big company in our real estate world is maybe a company that makes $1 million a year. Right? But guys like Mike, they're working with companies that do 50, $100 million a year, and that maybe is a small size company. So we're going to be talking about leadership skills. And this is don't if you're new to this business. If you're new don't check out because this is going to be super important for you to understand. Even if you don't want a super big business to understand these kinds of leadership skills that are relevant and important for us today, that's what we're going to be talking about. All right. So the first thing I want to bring to you is this podcast is brought to you by Simple Land kit.com. And it's Simple Land kit.com, you're going to get all of my best resources and marketing materials and scripts and checklists and calculators and software for flipping vacant land deals. And this is all completely free. Get it right now. It's simple land kit.com. And also if you are a subscriber or if you're not, if you're watching this on YouTube right now, please subscribe to my channel. Give me a thumbs up like this video and comment down below. Let me know if you have any questions and Mike will be here also later. I'll send him this YouTube video and he'll answer any questions you guys might have. We're going to give you some links, and descriptions are links in the description to Mike's website to his company, so you can go there to get more information about all of that. Cool. I think we're ready to go. Let's bring Mike on. Mike, how are you?

Mike:  So I'm good, man. How are you?

Joe:  Awesome, I'm glad you're here. I'm using, a new tool today called Riverside to record this podcast, so I'm hoping it works. I think it is. I've been flipping cameras here. Hopefully my video guys can edit that and make it work, so we'll see. But I'm glad you're here, Mike.

Mike:  Thanks. Thanks. I appreciate the invite. It's, always fun catching up with you and, feel like I just saw you a couple of weeks ago at an event, and that was really fun. And, it's good. Good catching up, man.

Joe:  Yes, it is cool. All right, so let's talk about leadership. Sure. You know, and you have a unique perspective, too, because you've been in the big corporate world and you work with big, big corporate companies, but you also have seen the smaller mom and pop shops when you go and speak at some of Shaun's workshops and stuff like that. Right. Let me just ask you a brief overview question. I mean, do the same leadership principles apply to the small business as it does the big corporate businesses?

Mike:  Ironically, yes. Most people don't think they do, but they definitely do. You know, we work with companies that have 30,000 people, and we work with companies that have two people. And so it doesn't really matter. The size of the company are kind of a joke that our organization is, you know, if you've got people, you've got people problems. And, and it generally revolves around leadership. And so that's what we focus on. So it doesn't really matter to us what size company it is. But yes, the same problems persist throughout any size.

Joe:  Size doesn't matter.

Mike:  It doesn't matter.

Joe:                       That's a relief, Mike. Anyway. Well, you see, this is funny because Mike and Shaun have very similar sense of humor. And, so that was funny for multiple reasons. All right. So leadership. What is it? How do you define it? What's a good place to start with is.

Mike:  Well, you know, the funny thing is, there's lots of ways to, to define it. You know, it's really interesting pieces that we've traveled all over the place. We've been in several different, states working with different, companies out of about 48 different states. And we have found that there is a, a lack of leadership in almost every level of the organization. And what we found is that there are six things we all got together. Our team, we got about 16 people on our team, consultants, strictly consulting. And plus a lot of support. And last summer we sat down and said, you know what's going on with like some of the biggest things we're seeing as misses out there in the field, like what's the biggest gap? And we put a lot of things on the whiteboard. But there were six common themes that kept coming up over and over and over and over again. And, you know, one of the biggest things was, this need for, you know, understanding yourself. And I talk a lot about that. As a matter of fact, that was the presentation you saw me do just a few weeks ago. And understanding yourself and the importance of that. And we've got tools and assessments to help with that and figure out, you know, the types of leader that you're going to, the kind of category you're going to fall into, and so on. But there were six things. And so and we created this, this, this leadership foundational course around that. Those six things were so prevalent that it was almost shocking, to me. But I'm sure we'll touch base on a few of them today. I probably won't have time to go through in detail all of them, but it was really interesting. One was, you know, just does self-awareness having a high level of self-awareness. Cornell University did this really cool study not too long ago that said that self-awareness was the number one predictor of success for a leader and a leadership group, and it was also the number one predictor of whether or not the company was going to have a healthy bottom line. So we started with that just to kind of kick it off a little bit.

Joe:  So these are six things that you find in good leaders in good companies.

Mike:  These are these are six things that we found that people struggled with the most that are foundational core competencies in leadership. And so, so when we were going through and we said, okay, so some of the leadership teams that you're working with, where do they seem to struggle? And so as we were making the list as individuals, pointing those things out, we noticed those six things were very common themes, for areas that were struggling in.

Joe:  Okay, good. Can we talk about them?

Mike:  Sure. Let's do it.

Joe:  All right. Yeah. First one is self-awareness, right? Why don't you. Can you just list the six and then we'll talk about each of them?

Mike:  Sure, sure. There's self-awareness. There's leading through communication. Leading communication and conflict, I should say, there's how to lead people legally. There is always an issue with people saying things and doing things they should not say, whether it's during the hiring process. And it's not just the basic things like, you know, what religion are you and you know, those basic things that we kind of already know. But there's a lot of, legalities to leading people. Clearly, that we talk about in our session, there's a state leading team performance, there's leading a team through change. There are in another just leadership strategic practices that we talk about. But the first one we always start off with is the, the self-awareness piece. Like I said, we found that when we fix or work on these with a team that it fixes about 90% of all of the other issues in the company, because most of the time it's, you know, conflict resolution or change or, you know, things like that, leading people in general, and having some self accountability by far fixed almost everything. And so that's why we started with those things.

Joe:  Interesting. And why is that.

Mike:  Why is it that what specifically.

Joe:  Well, when you fix self-awareness.

Mike:  Yeah.

Joe:  If it helps fix 90% of the other problems.

Mike:  Those six things, only fix those six things.

Joe:  Oh, OK. I see self-awareness leading through conflict. Yep. Leading people legally, right. Leading people with performance and then change, leading them through change. Is there another one?

Mike:  And then strategic leadership practices. So helping people understand the vision, that you or the company or both, if you're the owner, are looking towards hitting and then how do you share that vision? How do you inspire that shared vision with your team so that they feel like they want to come in and do all the things that you are really excited about? I don't know, okay. So that's, that's a whole another topic in itself, for sure.

Joe:  That's a two hour conversation book about all of you could write a whole book about all of this.

Mike:  For sure. We're working on it right now, as a matter of fact.

Joe:  Oh, good, good, good. And you're not using you're not writing with AI, right?

Mike:  No I'm not. No.

Joe:  Okay, yes. There's a trend right now. Everybody thinks that you're going to pages. There's people that are out there thinking that they can just use AI to write this book. And yeah. And everybody's going to love it though, bothers me.

Mike:  We've had to have stories and enough, you know, analogies that, we don't need to use artificial intelligence to write a book, so.

Joe:  Good. All right. Good. Yeah, well, sorry about the first one. Self-awareness. What does that mean?

Mike:  So, having an understanding of who you are, there's a few things where you look at. One is there are different drives that all of us have. And those drives are translated into behaviors that people see. So there's four that we look at. There's really dominance. There is, you know how big your dominance is. How much is your need for control? You know, over the people and projects around you, things like that. Then there's zero extroversion, you know, how much social interaction with your team or your clients do you want versus other people? And there's a patience level, and that is defined a little bit differently than that. All of the patients that you and I would normally think about that. That is more lined up with how much change you are wanting to drive in your company. For all these, you know, business owners and say, you know, I make it rain. You know, we do all these things to, you know, cause craziness at our company and they kind of pride themselves on it, but their staff is kind of pulling their hair out, you know, quite a bit trying to figure things out along the way. And then we look at the morality that need for rules and structure and all of those things, all of those drives that people have are usually translated into some kind of behaviors that we can see and watch and kind of understand. And when you display those behaviors, that has a ripple effect on the company. And so depending on the topic, that could have a very positive ripple effect. Or it could be, you know, very detrimental to the team around you, depending on of course, what the topic is. And so we spend a lot of time talking about what kind of drives a person has so that they can understand their behaviors. And then of course, if they can understand the team around them and how they like to do business, we can tell them exactly when they're those drives will be very favorable for their role and when they might be struggling in that role. So it's pretty insightful. We've got a couple of assessments that we use for that to kind of get us going, kind of get the juices flowing a little bit. But overall, it's a pretty fascinating thing that most people don't understand the ripple effect piece.

Joe:  So, is this where you use the predictive index?

Mike:  Oh we do, yeah.

Joe:  Okay. Talk about that because this is one of the main tools you use when you do presentations. That's right. The predictive index give you a little history about that and how powerful it is. And how could somebody actually take one of these and do it for themselves.

Mike:  So, first of all, if you want to take one, you can go to my website. It's humanlytics.com. So human and then lytics.com. Basically it's data and analytics on people. That's kind of how we came up with that. And so there's a thing a tab on there for free assessment. You can get it. It'll be a basic assessment. That will give you. So you're not going to get all of the information, but we can supply that for you as well. If you, would like to schedule a call with us. So that's no problem. And there's ways to connect with us on the website as well. But it's fascinating because it shares those four drives that we were talking about. It kind of goes really in-depth with those. And it tells me how you currently feel the need to adapt for your business as well. And the more somebody has to adapt to, the more you stress I know they're under. And so what we try to do is get leaders in any level of the company in there, kind of like that unique genius zone. So they can be in that realm of their own natural drives at any given time. And all has to change a lot. Now, on occasion, they'll have to write their work business. We all have to change to adapt. But we use predictive index specifically because it's been around a long time. It's been around since 1955. It was actually invented at the beginning of it was invented in World War two. And so it's EEOC compliant. So you can use it for hiring. That's the Equal Employment Opportunity, act basically. And so it's, it's just, something that's been around for such a long time and with over 500 validity studies, we just know that it works really, really well. And according to Harvard, it's got a 98.6% accuracy rate. So, we don't use anything else in our business.

Joe:  I love this test because I hate every other personality test. It takes too long. I get annoyed with 500 questions. Right? And it's just, oh, I get an error, I get irritated, and by the by the end of it, I was always like, you're you have anger issues. That's what it tells me here. It's not because I do. It's like, I hate those tests, but you're saying you can get it. You can get it done in like five minutes.

Mike:  Yep. Six minutes at the most. Seven minutes if you're really taking your time. And the most amazing thing of all is there's no questions. It's not a, it's not a personality test, per se. It really allows us to understand what your drives are or how you like to do business. And then when we translate that into behaviors, a lot of people think of that as personalities. But it's really a driver's assessment. And so when you're done with that, we'll be able to tell you, you know, really where your natural drives come out in your current role. And generally speaking, we can tell you exactly where you need to adapt as well. It's pretty fun.

Joe:  And the great thing about it is it's incredibly accurate when you see when it when it gives you your report, you're like, oh my gosh, he got all of that from just this a few questions, but also it's great for your team. It's great for figuring out okay well this is how I operate. You know this these are my drives. And then what kind of people do you need around you to support you and build your team with.

Mike:  That's right, that's right. So you got what we find is a lot of people have, you know, they say, well, I can't it's harder to find good people these days. And it's so hard to, you know, keep good people these days. And so that's where we kind of came up with the phrase of, you know, are you talent repellent? You know, most people have really good people on the team or have hired good people, and they actually drive them away. Which is really interesting. Most people don't leave for money issues. They use money as the reason to leave. If somebody gives them $0.50 more an hour, a dollar more an hour. But it's generally they, you know, for the reason they start looking, anyway, is that they. Don't like their boss, or they don't like the culture and all that revolves around leadership. It's a big issue in the industry, especially today. People will just pack up and leave. They'll just ghost you. They won't show up to interviews. If they get a sense that they'll just be there for three weeks or weeks, and next thing you know, they're just gone. You never, ever hear from them again. And so our role was to try to eliminate all that, to make sure that the entire team is cohesive at every level from hire to retire.

Joe:  I love that. Okay. So these six things, again, for the leadership competencies that you need to be you need to have nailed down. Number one is know yourself self-awareness what drives you right. And that starts with the predictive index test right. Anything else you want to add to that before we move on?

Mike:  No I think that's it. That's incredibly important that we just use that as a stepping stone to start the conversation. All the rest will come in through the coaching that we'll give you. So, but that's just kind of gives us a starting point to help us understand who we're talking to.

Joe:  Yeah. Let's talk about leading through conflict, then. This is the other important competency that leaders need to have understanding, because the conflict will come whether you like it or not. Right, right. No matter how big of a team or how small of a team you have, there will be conflict. So why is this so important? Well.

Mike:  There is I think some people actually, you know, eliminate, try to eliminate conflict. There's a couple of reasons for that. One is they just don't like it. They feel like it's just, something they don't want to deal with because they hate confrontations. And that's an issue in itself. And the other is they think it's unhealthy. And that's just not true at all. How you handle the conflict is that it could be healthy. And sometimes conflict can be healthy. For example, you know, we sit in some, boardrooms with, with different companies and the leadership teams and somebody will bring something up that somebody else doesn't want to talk about. So they just kind of squash it, or they decide to move forward with some project that they know is kind of a dump project that shouldn't be worked on, but no one has the ability or, you know, they don't feel they have the ability based on the culture generally to share what's on their mind, share what they should be thinking. And so, you know, they think, well, that's just going to cause conflict. They don't want to have those conversations with people. But conflict is very, very healthy when it's done with respect for the roles that each person has around the table. And it's okay to disagree. People disagree all the time. We've kind of lost that subtle art of saying, hey, you know what? I don't see where you're going here. I don't like this idea. I don't think it's going to be good for the company. I don't think it's going to be good for the people. Whatever the situation is, it could be conflict, sort of like that. It could be conflict of, you know, just one person doesn't get along with another person because they're very, very different. That could be a couple of different forms of conflict. But all of it to a certain degree is healthy. If you're really sharing what's on your mind to get to a cure for something versus just arguing about crap, quite honestly.

Joe:  All right. Good. So let's give some tips on how to do this.

Mike:  Well, first of all, understand that most situations the other person is really doing their best to bring a really good idea to the table. So it's not like, you know, just because they disagree with your idea or you disagree with theirs, it doesn't mean they're saying it just to take you off. Right? I mean, they have more, you know, generally, you know, better things to do than that. And so just know that everyone, if they're all focused on the vision of the company and trying to filter their ideas through the core values of the company, everybody is doing their best. That's kind of how you have to look at it. Everybody's doing their best to work towards that vision. And if you kind of look at people like that, you say, okay, we might disagree on this particular issue, and neither one of us may not be the final decision maker, but at least if everybody says their piece and everybody says what's on their mind, then I respect the way, you know, most times they can get around that. It's actually more simple than not. There are several books out. There's fierce conversations on things like this. There's crucial conversations. We take a look at a person's, predictive index, results. And I can tell you almost instantly where the conflict is coming from. You know, what the argument sounds like. And sometimes it's just people saying, oh, you know what? This these things aggravated me about you, but I didn't realize I could really use them to my benefit to look at and solve a problem differently. And so once they learn to master those strengths in each other and utilize them, that's half the battle right there. So nine times out of ten, we can fix those issues very, very quickly. It's almost all of them we can fix it. It just takes longer.

Joe:  Yeah, I'd say it's more than half the battle. Just understanding where they're coming from. Yeah. And why. And they understanding where you're coming from. And you realize, oh we actually have more in common. We want the same thing. Right. That understanding is super important.

Mike:  When we have, you know, when we do events and I'm giving presentations, whether it's to a mastermind group or to a corporation for their annual retreat or whatever, we bring people up on stage and actually do these kind of read backs with them from their predictive index results. And sometimes it's business partners, sometimes it's just two peers that are working with each other that have some conflict. And then sometimes in some cases it's married couples too, you know, they'll come up. And we'll talk to them. And as a matter of fact, I did that a little bit. We had a husband and wife team that were there at that event, and we started talking a little bit about their differences and how that could be perceived as friction. If they don't understand, you know, all of the benefits of those differences working together, it's kind of like, you know, I think of me, right? I've got a little bit lower formality than the average person. That's that drive for rules and structure. But I surround myself with people that have that so that we have it really well in the company grading. Specific example of that would be like my bookkeeper, right? I mean, I can do the job. It doesn't mean I like the job. I could do the job if I really needed to, but it's not something I'm really passionate about. I'm not, you know, loving it. He loves it. He loves every minute of it. He's got the right profile for it. I mean, I understand him always in the way he thinks, but I value the gifts that he brings with his different type of thinking and his different type of a profile.

Joe:  Excellent. Okay, let's talk about leading people legally. Why is why is obeying the law a big deal?

Mike:  Oh it's not if you want to go to jail or get sued or anything else, it's not that big of a deal. You know, leading people, leading others. Others legally. It's, it's one of those things where we find that people say things and do things that they don't even think are, you know, necessarily just an HR issue. Right? And that's all falls under legal. In many cases, many companies, I should say. And so, of course, everybody kind of knows the basics of this. You know, you can't ask about religion or race or sexual orientation, things like that during interviews, but it's all kinds of other things. I mean, even people that have conversations. If you and I were having a conversation in the break room about something that you and I both thought was maybe a little bit funny, but somebody else thought it was, you know, off color and, you know, they weren't, happy with it. We could literally be sued personally and professionally and that a lot of times people think, well, I'm protected by the umbrella of the company. And that's not always true, especially when you're in a leadership position. And so we actually go through parts of the law and talk to you about, hey, you know, these are the things you can say. These are the things you can say. And by the way, this this class that we offer called the Leadership Apex, this is actually a six week class. And so is for active people in workplaces that can't get out to take some courses. And so it's only two hours a week on zoom. And you can join the class anytime. We've got one every single month, about two hours a week. And we talk about each one topic each week. And there's a little bit of homework. So be prepared for a little bit of homework. But that's when you'll be partnered up with somebody else to talk about some of the legal aspects. Everybody will be assigned a part of the legal code that you have to kind of talk to and possibly present on if you're chosen or volunteer. But there's a lot in this category that people this is the one where most people say, you know, I knew the basics, but I didn't know that one, no matter what that is, they didn't know something in there.

Joe:  So give us 1 or 2 of the top biggest things and some tips that we could do to protect ourselves as business owners on the legal side of things.

Mike:  Well, the number one thing is just know what the laws are, because most people think that if I didn't say something directly to that person, then I'm okay with it, you know? So it's okay. A lot of it has to do with, you know, firing people depending on your state, you know, with no paperwork. You just got aggravated with them one day and you fired them. There's no paperwork, there's no coaching involved. In some cases, you know, you can fire at will, but then that, you know, kind of starts a downward spiral of, you know, what's the culture like at that company? You know, other people on your team are sort of doing and say, hey, what happened to, you know, Joe? He was here last week and now he's not here, and now he's, you know, Joe is going around saying he had no warnings for anything. So that starts to interview the culture. But there's knowing the law quite honestly is is almost all of it. Most people just don't have a clue, what the rules are around that.

Joe:  All right. So knowing the law, give us some other tips on real quick on like what to say, what you can say and not say when you're just joking around with somebody or you're on a zoom and you say some stupid joke like, oh, thank God, size doesn't matter. Yeah, but you know, I might offend somebody who has a small thingy, you know, and like, oh, how do so give us some tips on that. Yeah, yeah. And all seriousness, sorry for the stupid joke short.

Mike:  No, no it's fine. You know, one of the most recent things actually, was somebody was on a group call and a company, a lot of people in this company, and they were watching some show where there was somebody that had an accent. Right. And so they get on talking in that accent and it was from a different language or a different country. Right. And so and he made it like kind of like the funny, like the butt end of a joke and, and made it sound like not only was the accent not just funny, but actually kind of made them sound like they were a little stupid. And so that one person on that call correlated that voice with stupid now, because it was a, you know, a joke that he had heard in that, you know, that kind of accent. And so that caused a really, really big issue. And then there were, you know, a lot of harsh things said about the company. And there was a potential lawsuit. It almost got started because this company discriminates against of this particular race of people. So it turned into something that was really, really big and it was met incredibly innocently. But regardless of intent, you know, that person could have been sued again, not just through the company, but directly. And so we're trying to protect people from stuff like that.

Joe:  So just because Michael Scott does it on The Office doesn't mean you can do it right.

Mike:  He is a great example of a bad example.

Joe:  So just watch The Office and don't do anything he does.

Mike:  Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. And then you're done with the course. That's all you need to know.

Joe:  That's it. All right. By leading people through performance. What does that mean?

Mike:  Yes. So now you've got the right people involved. We've helped you hire the right people and you've got them on board. And now it's how do you kind of how do you model the way, how do you inspire them to do really, really well and coach, train and develop them to peak performance? And so we talk about everything from, you know, doing a weekly touch base with them to, you know, quarterly reviews to annual reviews. What should those sound like? What are you trying to accomplish? Is there some sort of, you know, even though they've got their own tasks to do? Are they living for something bigger within the organization? You know, what does your organization stand for? What is its vision? What are the core values? And I mentioned core values several times that. We talk about that quite a bit in this performance piece, because all of the feedback that we give our team members is all around the core values and how they're living them out. So we don't just talk about specific tasks. They didn't, when we praise them, we talk about how that particular task lined up with the core values that are constantly thinking about core values. And that's what we evolved the performance numbers around.

Joe:  Okay, good. So give us some tips. Then on that number one, you got to have some core values written down.

Mike:  Right 100%. Yeah. It's funny I walk into these companies all the time and I said, hey tell me a little bit about your core values. And they say, oh, we live by them. We breathe them day in and day out, as you can see right there on our walls all over the place. And I say, great. And I separate the leadership team out areas by themselves. And I say, okay, here's a piece of paper, write them down. And most of the times they have no clue what they are. The words are all jumbled. They don't live by any of them. And so it's funny they talk to them, but it's more of like a, you know, checkmark like, okay, we're done with the core values. But again, we teach companies to give structured feedback, whether that is praise, you know, or some constructive feedback around the core values. So for example, if one of yours is just making something up, we wow every customer like so every customer that comes in contact with me leaves going, oh my gosh, that was the greatest experience ever. So I would say, you know, hey, you know, Joe, how you demonstrated with that last customer our core value of making sure every customer as well when you did this. That was genius I loved it. Thank you so much. So now Joe is going to think of everything he does through the core value, not just the thing that he did, but the overall bigger vision of wowing customers. And then if I'm talking to them in private and I say, hey, Joe, you know, our core value is, you know, to wow every single customer that we come in contact with. Here's where I feel you could do that even more. And that's how we would give constructive feedback in private. And so again, everything filters through those things. And now they're thinking, okay, instead of just repeating the one act that I did, what other things can I do that would also give me accolades for that core value. And then everybody starts looking for them and sharing them. It works out incredibly well. People are moved by it, and a lot of positive things come from that.

Joe:  I remember when I worked in corporate America, our company, I worked for three different companies and they all had core values. Yeah, that were very prominent, and I tried hard to memorize them, but I always had a hard time like because we had to like in some of my companies that worked for me, we had to evaluate ourselves based on the core values, and then they would evaluate us. But some of them I was like, I'm just this I was a civil engineer and I was like, I'm just a number crunching guy. Like sometimes the core values were so kind of ethereal and up there and in the sky, I didn't, I didn't, I couldn't connect with how to make it work. And I'm practical day to day stuff that I'm doing every day. And then and then how do I figure out my job performance reviews and my evaluations based on something I don't even understand that I have nothing to do with? Like, I don't know. I'm trying to think of an example where I'm falling short. How do you have any tips on like creating core values that are practical, that are simple and not some pie in the sky? Something way up here? Does that make sense?

Mike:  Yeah. You know, you mentioned like ChatGPT earlier. Do not and get them from there. Do not Google them. Right. And so we'll start with that. But I would say get your leadership team together if you've got a leadership team, if you're if you're a solopreneur, then, you know, sit down in a room for a while and just lock the door and say, what is what is it that I want my company to stand for? What is it that every single time, you know, we accomplished something? I want to. I wanted to a light up with these things. And again, if you're a solopreneur, you'll find a lot of your personal core values pop up in this. If you're a business, you'll find many, many different ones come up because everybody will have different ideas. But at the end of the day, then they can be tweaked a little bit over time. But at the end of the day, you know, people really need to understand when they're interviewing for the job, they're actually coming on board to fulfill those core values. And so, you know, whether you are a numbers cruncher and you look at, you know, spreadsheets all day long, the work you do allows us to achieve these core values for our clients and for our business. And if they can't see the connection there, that's a big gap. That's a really big gap. So that's right. We talked to it in in feedback terms as well. Again they can start them in the brain. That's good. But I would definitely sit down and say okay what resonates with me. You might need to Google something to kind of get some ideas to spark, you know, some ideas, but don't let them be your ideas. Make sure that you come up with your own that you can truly stand behind, so that they mean something to you. As you're right there, if you can't understand what matches or how that works for you, that it's never going to work. But we always make sure that the interviews we do, every single person understands the core values of the company. And then we basically say, if you choose, after we find out they're a good fit. Obviously, if you choose to follow the core values, we'd love to have you on our team. If you choose one day not to follow the core values of the company, no problem at all. We just wish you would, you know, go work with somebody else. That's all we ask. And you can choose to go work for somebody else, or we can help you with that. But either way, these are the core values that we follow and we want everybody to live by them. How does that make you feel? And most people say makes you feel good, whatever. And then we talk about it way more than they ever expected. You know, they generally make up their mind. But most people, when they know upfront they're going to be okay with it.

Joe:  Good, good. All right. The fourth one is leading people through change. Yep. What does that mean.

Mike:  So first of all, you know there's a there's a lot of change, you know, in business over the last several years. Right. And so every company that just stays stagnant is going to be left behind a 100% of the time. And I'm not talking about change just because there's nothing better to do. But I'm talking about change. And I think through adapting to deliver a better promise for your customers, or to keep up with a competitor or to continue to crush a competitor, right? Depending on how you look at that or where you're at in the food chain, so to speak. But there are a lot of people that really struggle with change. And, you know, a good example of that is going back to the predictive index. We know someone who has a really high formality and a very high patience level, and they have a very hard time with change. A lot of times they want to know the reasons why. And so once they understand the why behind it, they're all good. And so it's funny, I used to be the director of learning and development for a company that had about 60,000 people. And so I did all the leadership competency training for all leaders from basically from Chicago to Hawaii. And somebody said, hey, we're going to go with you this big change. We're going to build a company and then maybe another one next year, and they're going to be big companies. And they said, do you need to come up with some kind of training to, you know, help people go through change? I thought that was the dumbest thing in the, you know, on the planet, because, you know, I'm driving change my own business. I'm totally fine with it. Why can't everybody be more like me? And then I realized, you know, when you have a very high patience that, well, those are the kind of like the steady at 80 people, you know, in the company that do an incredible job day in and day out of doing what, you know, some people might consider, like routine work, right? Those folks do an incredible job. But because they pride themselves on doing great work all the time, they don't like the change processes too often. They don't like the change policies or things like that. And so you need a little bit of extra hand-holding to understand the reason for the change. And you know what? Sometimes I've realized that some leaders can't come up with a good reason for some of the change. And if that's the case, I say, well, why don't you think about it? Now's the right time for it. Or if it's really ever the right time, because some leaders just make change happen because it makes them feel good. Right? I've got a new product. There's a line of with our core values is aligned with our vision. There's alignment with our vision statement. Not really, but I think we can make money on it. Well, those are the kind of things, you know, just aggravate a team at the time.

Joe:  So I guess understanding yourself is important in all this understanding why you want this change. And is this something that is really important, right.

Mike:  It isn't needed. Sometimes it's needed in the fourth quarter but not needed right now. And so why are we pushing this right now when the team could have, you know, ten things on their plate that they're currently working on? And, you know, you need to either help them take 1 or 2 things off before you give them something else, or postpone it till when it's really actually do or just eliminated altogether. But there's going to be change. There's going to be a lot of change in companies, and some of it is most of it's really warranted and needed to keep up, with the changing times. And so they need to be prepared for it. And some can.

Joe:  Usually I think the leader, the visionary, is more usually somebody who can accept. Change wants the change and is okay with it. But usually people who are more implementers, more, operators, more what's the word? I'm looking for integrators.

Mike:  That's exactly right.

Joe:  They're more resistant to the change. Right. Because they're more like, I just want to implement what you want, the vision. But the vision keeps on changing. So like you're making my job hard. Stop it. Yeah, that's part of the big conflict, isn't it?

Mike:  Whether that's reality or just perception, they believe that the vision keeps changing when it's not necessarily the vision all the time. It's just the tactic to hit the vision. Yeah. Sometimes the needing to change. Yeah, that's exactly right. Yeah. When we find that most visionaries, for example, CEOs, I've been working on this change in their mind for a really, really long time. Yeah, this isn't some new idea to them, but they don't always share their thoughts with the team. And so they'll sit back and they'll say, okay, you know what? I've been thinking about this for six months, guys. This is what I think we should do. And now it's just implemented. We've got to do it by Friday right next week. And so it throws the team off. So what has been, you know, kind of simmering in your head for six months to a year is, you know, an immediate emergency. And so that's really confusing for the implementing team because they think everything that you say is an emergency. So what makes this any different? Is this going to go away in 90 days like the last three projects data. Or is this a true lasting change that we need for the company? What they really, really hate is the flavor of the month. Can't stand it. And they think everything that a CEO says is that.

Joe:  I am so guilty of that. Okay, so.

Mike:  Your team probably loves you then. Yeah.

Joe:  Sometimes.

Mike:  Yeah. Yeah.

Joe:  Yeah, sometimes not. All right. The fifth one. What is. I wrote down strategic leadership practices. Yep. What is that?

Mike:  Yeah. That's, basically the sixth one. We just have one in the numbers. Yeah, that's the sixth one. So sometimes this is just really the visionary piece, right? You know, how do we, help our team understand what the vision is and living that mission statement and helping them, you know, with just our basic helping our team through just our basic understanding of our role. So we talk about everything from modeling the way to inspiring a shared vision to challenging the process. Encouraging others, you know, enabling others to act. You know, really the rest of the foundational pieces that we could kind of put all into a two hour session to talk about, which, by the way, every single one of those was also, it could be a half day session if we wanted them to be. But like model the way, for example, you know, most times people don't ever lead by example. They just do what I say and that as I do, and that's not a good thing. And so we talked to that quite a bit inspiring. You shared vision. You know, it's how do we get people around us to see what we're really going for. And not that they are assigned a task of their assigned a vision. And this is the role you play in that vision, right. And then challenging the process, that kind of kind of goes back to that, that conflict resolution or creating conflict, that healthy conflict. And so how do I challenge the process to the status quo? How can we do things differently, better, or streamline getting to the root cause of issues and things like that? Encourage the heart. You know, unfortunately, we've got a lot of leaders out there that encourage the process. That's the heart. Because remember, there are humans doing the processes, not robots. But yet anyway, that doesn't come for some for some areas of business, I should say. And so, you know, we got to remember we're working with human beings. You know, they have personal things going on. They've got, you know, business things. They've got career goals and aspirations. And sometimes we only focus on the actual task. So we talk about that quite a bit and then enable others to act. This isenable others to act is, in my opinion, based on all of my personal experiences, the biggest dream, most dramatic change for people when they first become a leader, they came from being an implementer, the doer person. Now they're overseeing all of the doers. And so to a certain extent, they think, well, you know what? No one can do it as well as I can. I've been doing it for five years, ten years, whatever it was. And so they have a hard time letting go. So instead of holding people accountable to the standards that they had when they got the role, which helped get them promoted, they would rather just say, you know what, you're probably going to miss your deadline here. I'll just do it for you. And that is a big struggle. So we want to enable others to act and not, you know, take their job from them. We want to actually have them feel like, hey, you know what? We're holding you accountable to the job we're doing through praise for all the time as you get it right. And you know, we're excited to be in your corner. But we are not the implementers anymore.

Joe:  That's a big shift.

Mike:  It's a huge shift.

Joe:  Yeah, yeah it is.

Mike:  There are lots of different levels in leadership, that people go through. The higher you go up, the less tasks you actually do. And most people struggle when they grow up in a company from, you know, it's kind of like the bottom rung, for lack of a better phrase, for it up to like a CEO position. And most smaller companies, you know, in smaller, business CEOs have never gone through any of those steps. They just started the business and started hiring people around them so they don't understand any level from entry level position to CEO. And so they have a hard time understanding the struggles that one level might be going through. And that's puts a lot of stress on people for sure.

Joe:  That's the whole what got you here won't get you there.

Mike:  That's right. That's right. And a good example of that is, you know, let's say Michael Jordan right. You know, greatest basketball player of all time. You know people argue about that. But I think he is. And so, you know you look at him as a player for the Bulls. Amazing leader. No one would ever say he wasn't a good leader. He was really, really good. He drove the talent on that team. And if somebody was having an off day, he encouraged them and he just he modeled the way for sure. He was inspiring. Encourage all those different things we just talked about. And his record, though, as an owner before the Charlotte Hornets same leader was completely opposite. He was a 71 thing. He won 75% of all this game, 72% as a Bulls player and only won like 37% as a Bulls owner. Different level of leadership. And so those same skills that got you here, we'll get you there. Perfect example of that, Joe. Yeah.

Joe:  Was he a manager ever or coach.

Mike:  Yeah. He was not. No. He went straight to owner.

Joe:  Okay, wow.

Mike:  Yeah. But you get that kind of money, it's easy to buy a team.

Joe:  Yeah, probably. Yeah. Probably is. Yeah. Thank you so much, Mike. thank you man. How can people reach out to you, get more information from you. Do you do the social media stuff?

Mike:  We've got a YouTube channel. We actually just started because we've been I been a lot of people have been reaching out saying, hey, we need some help. So we do that. We're on LinkedIn a lot. We work with a lot of HR departments first, generally speaking. But if you don't have an HR department, that's no problem. We don't we don't care about that. Like I said, we work with companies that have two people or tens of thousands of people. But you can go to our website at humanlytics.com, humanlytics.com. And there's a thing on there, a tab on there for the leadership APEX that you can learn more about it. There's an assessments tab on there. There are 800 numbers on there. You can reach out any time. And we'll be happy to take good care of you.

Joe:  Yeah. Awesome. If you're watching this on YouTube, the link will be in the description down below. Yep. Thank you so much, Mike. Have a good one.

Mike:  Thank you, Joe. Good seeing you again.

Joe:  When are we seeing you next? When are you going to come down to Saint Louis?

Mike:  You know that's a great question. Probably in, July, I think, is my next visit to Saint Louis.

Joe:  Cool.

Mike:  All right, man, I'll see you then.

Joe:  We'll see you. Take care.

Mike:  Bye bye. Take care.

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