Joe: What's going on, guys? Joe McCall Real Estate Investing Mastery Podcast. Hash tag Dirt Flipper. How do you like my new logo? Behind me, those of you watching me on YouTube. Glad to be here. I as you know, if you've been listening to my podcasts for the last 12 or 13 years since I've been doing this, is that crazy? I started this podcast before my youngest daughter was born. Anyway, I've been talking a long time about real estate, mainly houses, but for the last couple, three years I've been doing a lot of vacant land deals and I've been interviewing a lot of people doing vacant land. You got a great guest today, Ajay Sharma, who is from a company called Learn Dot Land. We're going to be talking to him about what he's doing. I had Clint Turner, his business partner on my show, Super cool guy. I love these guys, what they're doing. I really encourage you to go check them out, learn that land. They do a lot of what I do. They teach land investing. It's always good to get different perspectives on land. You know, everybody does it differently and some people do it better than others. Some people just do it different than others. And some people you. It's just good to learn from different people what's working today. And we're going to be talking about vacant land a lot today with Ajay. Now I want to tell you something I got for free that you should go check out right now at Simple Land kit.com. It's a kit that I put together has like 6 or 7 different things in it to help you get started on your vacant land journey. Direct mail Swipe file. The contracts I use with sellers, the scripts I use with sellers, the scripts I use with realtors, a software that I put together that helps you analyze and evaluate vacant land deals and then tells you what you should maybe offer. You can play with the numbers a little bit and then you click submit or something like that and it gives you some contracts that with the cover letter that you can actually send to the sellers if you want. It's all for free. It's Simple Land Kit dot com, but you better hurry up and go there because pretty soon I'm going to be charging like seven bucks for it or something like that, right? Also, after you put in your name and email to get this kit, there'll be a little invitation to watch a webinar. I want to teach you how to use everything that's in that kit. All right. So please go check it out. Simple land kit dot com. Anything else I can think of here before we bring Ajay on? Let's do it. Let's bring him on to see if I've been having camera problems. So my apologies. Ajay how are you doing man?
Ajay: I am living the dream, Joe. How are you, sir?
Joe: Good. Glad you're here. We met through a mutual friend who is your business partner, Clint Turner. You guys are doing some really cool, amazing things at the. You can see the link right there. You guys learn dot land. Go check them out. Clint has been teaching and doing this business for a long time. I've learned a lot from him over the years and I like what he's doing. There's a lot of really good information away for free on his YouTube channel, so go check that out. Learn that land. All right. So let's talk about your journey here. How long have you been doing land investing, Ajay?
Ajay: Yep, sure thing. So I have been in land for just over three years now. I started in September of 2020. I started over with the RE Tipster Camp. Good, good friend Seth Williams got one of his YouTube videos in my algorithm.
Joe: What are you, by the way, were you on the show with him?
Ajay: Yep I hope to co-host some episodes now.
Joe: That's okay. That's where we met because maybe it was through still through Clint. But I remember just backstory for everybody else listening. We had been talking back in May, had his podcast scheduled and I had my open heart surgery early June, so like that threw everything in a loop. And I texted Ajay and I said, Hey, man, can we just reschedule? Because like, yeah, so now it is fast forward almost 5 or 6 months. Yep. Finally doing our podcast. So this is all coming back to me now. I'm sorry about that.
Ajay: It's funny how that plays out, but yeah, I know Seth and I relationship and I get to call some of the episodes over there, which is always a blast.
Joe: And okay, I love what you guys did together. You guys did some really, really good stuff together. And by the way, if you ever want to stop working for Clint, maybe you can work with me and we can do stuff together anyway. Seth Williams I've had him on my show for a lot also. And good. All right. So you start. You got your start with him. Interesting.
Ajay: Yes, sir. Yep. So I went through his course, and, you know, I'm somebody that I'm a big, like, ready fire aim kind of guy.
Joe: That's the best guys.
Ajay: Yeah. I got three modules in out of sets, like 15 or whatever, you know? So it's just such a, it's such a detailed and that's kind of.
Joe: Dives so deep in the detail.
Ajay: I know he does, which is awesome, right? Because, because it's just there for everybody. And so I got three modules and it was a great I know what I need to do. I need to get a mailer out, right? So sure enough, I sent out a mailer and this was 2020 when things were a lot less competitive than they are now. Right? Right.
Joe: By the way, I remember those still people in 2020 complaining about the competition back then, Right? People always complain about it's too hard to find sellers, It's too hard to find buyers. But anyway.
Joe: I had to do that.
Ajay: And it felt like the gravy days, man, and then the gravy's still out there. You just have to actually work for it now, which is fine. So I had sent out about 150 yellow postcards. And we all know I think everybody has to do their do their time right, with the yellow postcards. And so I got 150 of those out, ended up getting one deal out of it. I bought a little half acre property for $3,000 all in. I think it's about 3500 with some junk removal. Ended up selling it for 15,000 bucks just a little bit later. And I was hooked. Wow. The issue with that first deal, Joe, is I just had this misconceived notion of kind of like the marketing to deal ratio. I was like, sweet man. I spend 70 bucks on marketing. I make $9,000. That's about what I had netted. This business is doing great. You put a dollar in, you like 1200 out. I can do this every day of my life, you know? Now, unfortunately, that's not how it went. But what it did was it slowed me down in my first 6 or 7 months just because I was marketing so infrequently and in such small volume. Then I kind of cranked it up and the next mailer was two 500 letters. Didn't actually get a deal until I think my third or fourth batch and then finally found a groove in some infill lots in Florida my first year, you know, made south of six figures from around 70, 80,000 bucks, something like that, just kind of messing around. And then later on stumbled into a deal, which actually came from my first lead. A gentleman also owned another 113 acres. I went and swept the rest of it up because I understood the business well enough to do that. So I was able to raise some money, bought it for 110, sold it for 450, got the deal done was awesome, just allowed me to invest in some coaching, which is how I got connected with now a lot of my good friends. But at the time that's where I got plugged in with Clint, you know, originally hired him as a coach and a mentor, and now we're partnered up, which is cool and a scaled up the business sense. Now I've got a business partner in the lad business. His name's Ben. He's my day to day operator and he is phenomenal at what he does. And then we have four staff working for us and I have an executive assistant, so we got people firing off on all cylinders and where we're having a fun night.
Joe: All right. So let's talk. We've been doing land for 3 or 4 years now, and you've seen a lot change. I mean, really a lot has changed in the last 3 or 4 years, hasn't it? When I I've been doing real estate, mainly houses since 2006, started doing land we went to I went to a Jack Bosch workshop, like a boot camp or something and started learning about land from him. Jack and I go way back. Jack's a great guy too. I recommend you all go check him out. He's. He's a really genuine, honest guy. Anyway, start getting excited about vacant land. And I started just testing different things and taking what I was doing with houses and doing them with land in terms of systems and processes. And I like to make a list of everything that you do in a deal and ask myself a real simple question How can I do none of this? How can I get somebody else to do it all for me? Right? So I started developing these things and I started training my sons, my teenagers to do this things. But anyway, back then, 3 or 4 years ago, I remember I was getting 5 to 5% response rates on some of my letters and my postcards. I was getting 3% response rates. Now response rate the way I measure it. Yeah, yeah. The response rate, the way I measure it is anybody who calls my phone number on a postcard. And personally for me, I don't like giving them options. I just want to give them a phone number and I don't like giving them websites. I want them to text or call this 24 hour recorded voicemail. So if I was getting 3% response rates back then, sometimes 5% on some of my letters, that was pretty good. And now I'm doing about 1%. But still, I'm not complaining because the numbers are still the same in terms of deals to offers. And that's the big metric that I like to look at. How many offers do I need to make to get one offer accepted? And it's still the same. It's depending on if I talk to them first or not. If I'm usually sending neutral postcards and letters and I'm telling you all this because I'd like I'd appreciate your feedback as well. What are you what are you saying? But like, we're still if I don't talk to them after they get the voice mail and I send them an offer about one out of every 25 to 30 offers get accepted. If I do talk to them first, it's about one out of 15 offer. Get accepted and those numbers are the same. The final thing I'll say to this is like when you still compare it, we say it's more competitive now, but compared to what? That's such an important question to answer, right? Because compared to houses, it's still my response. Rates are still three, 4 or 5 times better on my direct mail than they are for houses. So what do you think about all that in my head? Are you seeing kind of the same thing?
Ajay: Yeah, absolutely. I would say so. Our numbers are a little skewed because we also do some double closings. So that opens up the door to just do slightly more deals in the sense that, you know, if I have a 15 grand margin on an $80,000 property, I might still take it down and make 15 grand on it, you know, But obviously that's going to skew my offers to acceptances, right? So we get roughly 12% verbally accepted on it, but it's closer to like that 1 in 12, 1 in 15 that you're talking about when it's a flip price. So pretty consistently we're seeing really, really similar stuff in in that way. Being said. Like it's worth noting, my business was 100% text messaging up until October when we decided, Oh, let's start getting back then.
Joe: Oh, really? Yeah.
Ajay: And you know, we did great. We generated about $700,000 in deal equity just through texting this year. And so it was going to be, you know, we actually two weeks before had added an additional texting media. So it would have been two full time texting years and upgraded our lounge control account to the maximum account. And then sure enough, you know, it just hit the fan to put it nicely.
Joe: But they've I've heard they fixed it. They've kind of updated it. Right?
Ajay: Yeah. I'm going to refrain from speaking on the topic. My mom always said only share nice things or something to that. You have nothing nice to say. Don't say anything at all. So I'll refrain.
Joe: I feel your pain.
Ajay: But what I'll say is our team decided it was best that we just stopped entirely. And so we've redeploy our texting team to prospects like on market subdivide deals is kind of what we've been focusing on. And we've got a pretty big Rolodex for folks to partner up with and some good money partners and stuff. So that's kind of the business we want to build is doing pretty consistent, low seven figure flipping business and then, you know, build in an additional seven figures of profits through subdividing properties. And so I think we're well on track for that in 2024. And I'm excited about the systems we're building out. But I'm sorry, your original question was simply just like what type of responses we're seeing? And I would echo that. Yeah, the as long as you're willing to pick up the phone, a lot of the times like you'll get the deal done, more often than not, we don't do a lot of just setting out the blind offer necessarily, which I think you alluded to. I think we've been meaning to implement that when we struggle to get folks on the phone. But we've got some really good kind of lead management frameworks that our team uses to get over 90% of the folks that call in back on the phone. So we're I want to brag on my team a little bit. My team is phenomenal at getting sellers back on the phone and driving that all the way through the offer.
Joe: Yeah. Well, that book right behind your head there, you see that book, which was my cheese. Who moved my cheese?
Ajay: Who Moved my cheese. It's a great one.
Joe: And I'm constantly looking at that too, because the I remember reading that book and when I was working on my job in 2001, and I remember why somebody at my corporate job recommended it, but I remember thinking about that like, if I ever go work for myself, I always need to be cognizant and aware of the cheese moving because the cheese moves and what you know, everything has a shelf life at the same time, right? Like what used to work a year ago is not going to work the same later from now. And so we constantly need to be looking at where is the market going, what is working? And I'm seeing more and more people doing these smaller sub divides or entitlements or something like that. Right. So I want to ask you some questions about that for sure. Kind of where you're going and where do you see the cheese moving in the future. But I got so many questions for you. I want to I want to ask you, I mentioned earlier, you got to you kind of got started with vacant land doing infill lots. Yeah. And then you moved more to recreational land, larger recreational, more rural land, right? Correct. I was kind of the opposite. I was doing mainly I was only targeting like 2 to 4 plus acres, maybe in some counties, Right. Only going after the bigger lots. And it was doing great with it. Right. But I interviewed a friend, Ray Zhang, but I think he pronounces it Ray Jang, super nice guy. And just a few years ago, he was like from China, homeless in Florida, and started listening to Tom Krol's wholesaling ING podcast, started wholesaling houses and I was doing a bunch of land deals. Anyway, he's just he was like his philosophy was so much more simpler. It was like, I just, I don't care what it is, I'm just going to follow the demand. And he would go in and he would see, All right, this is where everybody's buying land, right? And then he would go in and do marketing in those areas, and then he would talk to the people, like which is something that is land investors. Don't you think we've gotten a little lazy over the years and just like, Oh, I just want to send blind offers or I'm just going to send sellers to a voicemail and then send them an offer and then maybe only talk to them till after I get my offer. I was listening to him and he started going after these small little infill lots, and then he would send stupid, ridiculous offers just to get the phone to ring. And then he would get on the phone and talk to them and with his Chinese accent and all right, English as a second language and started killing it, doing deals just by talking to people and being honest with them. And so anyway, so I kind of went I started doing more infill lots and I found those were an easier a lot of ways because there's just more demand, more buyers. So what's what what's your philosophy on that? What do you see there? Yeah.
Ajay: So I think it's really important to be mindful of like people's personal journey is. And here the here's what I mean by that is I was doing all infill. I was 100% all in on infill particularly I was doing Florida infill and then back in the spring of 22, I'm like, what year is this? Spring of 22 are good. The Fed. Right And. Plenty familiar with decided to be in hiking interest rates. And I overnight had like 30 to $40,000 of deals just fall apart. I was at a place where I had begin to do so and let me take a step back. I began starting to work with national homebuilders, spec home builders. Everyone got scared. Interest rates went up and the market just froze. And I was doing a bunch of these assignments and they were pretty thin, but they were working and we were making money. And I know people that still do them and make great money doing it. But I'll tell you, Joe. Are you familiar with the Enneagram at all? And this has a tie in. It's our personnel assessment tests. Okay. So I'm a type seven wing. Eight. A seven is an enthusiast. So I just love fun. I love life. But I had this wing eight and I can't remember the name of it, but what I can tell you is a Wing eight typically really likes control. So when this all ties in, when the Fed hiked interest rates and all these builders got scared, everybody backed out of their contracts. Now I had to be a jack wagon and go back to my sellers and say, I can't do the deal, which I hate doing very seldomly. Do we do that? And so I felt horrible. I lost a bunch of money. I did a bad job of balancing risk, so I wasn't very cash heavy at the time. I had hundreds of thousands dollars in land and then everything started going stale for a couple of months, depending on what you were doing. I had to take a haircut on a couple of things to keep lights on and I had scarred Joe. And so it actually was so good for me though, because it changed my fundamental philosophy on investing where I said, okay, we're going to focus on value instead of just like trying to make a margin, essentially. Right. And let's just go back to fundamentals. Let's just buy dirt at 30 to $0.50 on the dollar. And you know, you have a margin, right? And I said, hey, if the economy goes to pupu. Right. Who is still buying there? Well, you got your old boys that are blue collar that are still going to buy a rural recreational little boat owner financing. I have enough partners that buy a note where I can liquidate my property pretty quickly if I need to. So get a bunch of my cash back. So I just followed the demand and rural recreational and truthfully, what I liked most about it, there's two fold here is number one, the control piece. So now I'm not at risk of interest rates just like demolishing the business overnight. Will it affect it? Absolutely. Higher interest rates means, you know, less purchasing power for your end buyer, which ultimately means I can afford to pay a little bit less. But if I buy a property for $60,000 and instead of selling at 150, it sells at 120, I'm still pretty happy. You know what I mean? First is if I have a property under contract for 25 and I need to get rid of it for 32, 35 and now these builders can only pay 28. That's that sucks, man. Don't want to play that game. And so I just said I was so sick of playing the game where I make $3,000. I'd rather play the game where I make 30 to $80,000 on a deal. And so that's exactly how we engineered the business. And so I went back and said, Let's get a fatter margin. Let's grab the right let's grab the right cheese, right? Yeah. And I said, you know what? I know folks that are scared, honestly probably want to get out of the cities. If they get laid off, they may even have a good excuse to leave home and go more recreational, more rural. And then I just stayed pretty close to major metros where I know there'd be fairly consistent demand now. And that means instead of disposing of my lot in 30 to 60 days, like you can super easily with an inch a lot, it's closer to a 3 to 6 month turnaround time, which I'm okay with because now I'm a lot more cash heavy. I don't really use leverage, you know, I like to keep 9 to 12 months of objects in terms of like my payroll and marketing expenses and everything in my cash accounts. Yeah. And then separate money for deal funding. And so, and then we work with a lot of deal funding partners instead of putting our money at deals depending on it. So anyways, it just completely changed my philosophy on investing. We still do some infill lots just so like it has to be a smoking deal and I'll do an M&A every now and then. I'm just not subject to it if that makes sense. So like we did a deal go Texas where we bought it for $8,500 and I sold it for 43 K That's a great deal, man. Like I'll do that deal every day of my life, you know what I mean? And that was an infill spec home builder wanted. But man, if I got stuck holding the bag, I guarantee I could sell a thing at 15 to 20 all day no matter what. Right? Rain or shine.
Joe: Are you using your own money or using private money to fund these deals?
Ajay: Really depends on the deal. We actually do a lot of double closing. About 40% of our business is we'll find an end buyer and then line up the closings to be on the same day. So obviously, we don't really need funding or if we do, it's transactional at that point. Aside from when we are doing when we are purchasing the property, I'd say probably 80% of the time we're going to use a private money partner. And thankfully I'm well networked enough that we have some hard money partners and then we have some equity partners on the equity partners. It's very private relationships that just like kind of trust me to do deals that I don't have to check with. And we have a 7030 split, 72 the operator, 32, the investor. And then on the private money side, I've got one private money guy that gives us two and 12. Anyone that doesn't know hard money terms, that's two for origination points and then 12 on the note with 12 month terms interest only at the end basically, which is nice to know, like installments or anything like that.
Joe: So can I ask you a question about that? Go ahead. And investor It's 212, so two points right up front. Yep. And then it's 12% interest annually. But if you only hold the money for three months, you're just paying them three. You're paying. You're only paying three months of interest rate, you're not paying them the full 12 months of interest.
Ajay: It depends which lender I work with. I've got some that they will set a minimum of few. Regardless, I want this and then I've got others that do it annualized. So it just kind of depends on the deal, man. And people's risk appetites change all the time and you've got to, you know, but there's no rules, you know what I mean? So it.
Joe: Just depends. It depends. So let me ask you then. And your deals are the way I call I wholesale for buying whole my land deals, right? So, like, how does your operation work? Do you do you mainly try to wholesale all your deals?
Ajay: So we will wholesale. And you know, when I say wholesale, like we get explicit permission from the seller to list on the MLS while before we do it, right? So we'll either have a marketing and assignment clause in our regular purchase and sale agreement or depending on the state, will go as far as to get an attorney in fact document signed. So that's, you know, a step above that, but a step below like a power of attorney where you need an ID and a notary in that whole thing, whereas attorney, in fact, you can just kind of get a dark sign and you're good to go and must it? And so and I'm not an attorney and this is not legal advice.
Joe: But same thing. Yeah. Awesome.
Ajay: Yeah. So we do that about 40% of the time. It really just depends on the deal. Like we had a deal in North Florida. We got under contract at 160. We got an attorney, in fact, document signed. We sold it to a buyer for 230 K Cash. You know, that's one that I thought it was worth 220 to 250. I didn't necessarily want to take it down. And it just gets, you know, some of those deals get a little bit thinner when you start sharing the pie, right? So just makes sense to wholesale. Alternatively, though, we've got I'm trying to think of a good deal. We have a deal we just bought that was we bought it at 150. We cut it up into two smaller lots and we have it on the market right now for 280. So that was one that we originally had a listed at 300. I thought it was worth 300. It's probably worth closer to 80 to 70 somewhere in there. But that's one that we worked with our money partner with because I'm like, I don't come on this deal because.
Joe: You're doing well, because you're doing bigger deals now you are doing you said double closes. So like, what is your how many, how many months do you have to close with the seller?
Ajay: Typically 3 to 6 depending on the seller.
Joe: 3 to 6 months. Nice. I just shoot for three and you're your you're asking for six.
Ajay: Yeah, We usually it really depends on the deal. So we have an in-house deal calculator and it all depends on pricing. So for us and I kind of reveal the numbers here, it's like if you give me six months, you've got built in costs, right? I'll build in 3% for a buyer's agent for miscellaneous costs and title fees. So if it's worth 100 grand, I'm going to go minus all that. We'll call it 96 now and then I need to make a margin. Our minimum is $15,000, so then I'll subtract another 15,000 off that. And so, you know, 96 -15 would be $81,000 would be our 180 day per purchasing price, basically. Hey, you give us 180 days, we can market the property, we can get you under contract at 81. I'm pretty confident I'll find a buyer at 100. Within six months I can find a full market offer within six months on most properties in a decent area. Right. Alternatively, if we're doing 90 days, I want 90% of market value minus costs -15. Okay. So if it was 100, my base number would actually be $90,000 minus the 15 K minus the buyer agent commission minus the. Because I just think I'm going to need a discount a little bit to make sure I move. It is depending on the market. If it's an infill, you're going have no problem moving it in 90 days generally because you can always drop the price. We'll go outbound and call spec homebuilders sometimes, you know, some of the at the volumes will skip trace a list and just cold call every single LLC that's bought a lot in the past year and see what they have to offer. But with you know, with the 40 acre tract in East Texas, I can't really go outbound. So I need 3 to 6 months if I'm going to wholesale. Otherwise I need a, you know, 50% of market value or less to buy it, right?
Joe: So when you're wholesaling it, you try to double close when you can, right? Correct. So on those deals are using your own money, are using partners or private investors money because that's just a single day transaction, right? Like you need the money just for one day. Yeah.
Ajay: So in Florida we actually have a title company that'll do a C to A transaction so we don't need money. And then in we do we've done deals in like seven different states. A majority of our business this year is Texas and Florida. In Texas, we don't have a title company that does C today. If anybody has one, feel free to share. But because of that we use double closed.com a lot of times for transactional funding. They're 1% super affordable there. There's some guys in our mastermind. I'm in collective genius. I've actually got a belt that I won at the Mastermind from the last one, which is.
Joe: I used to be in Collective Genius when it started, I was in it.
Ajay: Great group. Great group, yeah. And we've got a lot of value from it this past year. And I think, you know, the program we're in is specifically for folks that are kind of within like a 30 to 100 deals a year, which is exactly kind of where we were when we joined. And it was, you know, you can do more or you could do better, right? And I was like, well, I don't want to do a thousand transactions a year. So we focus on just doing better deals over time and running a better business and being more controllable. You know, I think one of the cool things about the land business is after you get to a certain place, it becomes a really, you know, and I think anybody that believes otherwise just has a limiting belief on it because it's like, man, you send the mail, you make the offer, you buy the deal, you sell the. Deal in 3 to 6 months. Balance your cash position now and you make good money in this business.
Joe: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So Collective Genius is really good. Group Medley and I go way back. So are you keeping any deals and selling them and owner financing?
Ajay: I am not, I'm too young, man. I just want to make my money right now. So I build up my cash and I love the idea of owner financing. The returns look great, but like, I'm not sitting on enough liquid to be like, Oh, I love these 30% annual returns, you know? So for us, it's just let's just keep building the cash, not reinvest in the business, reinvest in talent, reinvest in marketing, and, you know, obviously take a decent amount home. But we're not doing any financing will offer owner financing on our properties and we'll just sell the note to an end buyer if we do it.
Joe: Isn't that interesting? We just started doing that a little bit selling our notes and it's been like we wholesale maybe 85% of our deals and then we want to finance 15, 20% of them, but we've got a nice little net. And we just started selling these notes and it's like, Dang, why don't we do this before? Yeah. One of the cool things about land that I like is I'm 49, right? And just had open heart surgery. And so I think about, you know, how much longer do I have? Right? But one of the cool things about this is if I wanted to and I just wanted to retire and quit, I could easily, within a year, get 10 to 20 grand in recurring passive income from vacant land notes. It's not that hard. Just keep the ones that were wholesaling and sell them on owner financing. It's kind of reassuring and comforting, isn't it, to know that you could pretty quickly get to that kind of cash flow number if you wanted to, Right?
Ajay: Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think that's just a function of having a certain skill, right. And so I came in like, I'll learn the subject matter. And when you get to a certain skill level, I'm never going to be afraid again about producing income for me or my future family. You know, it's like I have skills. I know how to sell, I know how to negotiate. I know how to call people. I know how to pick up the phone. I'm not afraid to do any of that. I know how to work. I know what moves the needle in a business. So, like, I'm going to make money forever. All right? And, you know, let's say real estate goes to heck for whatever reason, and maybe there's just literally no buyers. I mean, I think the business model will always work. People will always buy and sell dirt, right? Yeah. But even in a hypothetical world where they didn't, you know, go sell life insurance or payment processing and go build a business that way and still go figure out how to make a hundred a month, you know, it's like it's all the same stuff. At the end of the day, business principles and practices just don't really change. They're the fundamentals that are tried and true in all businesses.
Joe: That's it goes back to who moved my cheese to because like tax, those things stay the same sales and marketing man. And I always say this we're not in the real estate investing business, right In the land business. We're in the marketing business here present. You understand that you can no matter where the cheese is moving, you can you can make that work.
Joe: Oh, that's so cool to hear. All right. Talk about the marketing that you guys are finding working today. Yeah, I totally get what you guys doing.
Ajay: Yeah, it's actually a really interesting time for you to be asking me that question. Yeah, I'm not cool because we were all text message until about a month ago. What I can tell you though, is I work with a lot of different clients and, you know, the stuff we do, what we're learning. And so I have exposure into quite a bit of what's working today in our business. The moment we got wind of launch control being at risk, we dropped 25,000 postcards because I just I have a team format. I keep busy. And so, you know, it's like, well, let's just go spend a quick ten grand and bring in some leads. That's funny. The mail is barely starting to hit and we already got three contracts and a verbal on a pretty decent, pretty decent. Get the three contract, pretty small deals. Each one is like ten, 15 grand. The two verbals one's a 30 grand, one's like a 70 or 80. So it's like, okay, mail works, right? And that's what I'm trying to get at is anybody that, you know, there's so many sexy different marketing channels out there, cold calling PPC text messaging ring was voice mail and then it all works, right? I don't know the legalities of every single one, but what I can tell you is every single marketing channel works and I've done cold call. We did text message, I've done PPC. I haven't done paper yet. So talking to a couple of vendors in that arena. But I can tell you is it all works, right? And so I just knew I hey, I know how to turn on mail and obviously it's a little funky during Christmas season, which is why I'm glad I dropped it 2 or 3 weeks ago or not right now. But we were able to drop 25,000 postcards. We're doing a split test right now, so my business partner Ben is a awesome dude who has a great smile and we put this fun, cute picture of him on our postcard next to his dog's Bible, his on my uncle's dog, so he doesn't have any dogs. But and basically he just said like, Hey, we want to buy your land, but it has this personal touch, right? And now we're split testing that against kind of postcard mania, just like we buy land for cash or whatever type postcard. And we're going to see which one brings in both more responses and more deals. Over 2500 sample size between the two.
Joe: I'll get you a glass of iced tea. The more plain, boring, ugly one works better.
Ajay: You think so? We're getting a really good response so far. So far Ben's is winning, believe it or not.
Joe: Are you serious?
Ajay: 100%, man. We're about four times more successful on the one with his face on it away. It's early, Joe, so we've only gotten about probably 10 to 15% of the leads that I would expect from our postcard.
Joe: I'll still give you a glass of iced tea if you win.
Ajay: Sweetened or unsweetened?
Joe: Whatever you want. I have a student who was. I forget her name. Let's just say her name is Mary. And she was doing a lot of direct mail. And she. She was getting frustrated with the results. She changed it to she was doing horses at the time and she changed it to Mary Buys House. She got an LLC. Mary buys house it and she included a picture in her postcard of her shaking somebody else's hand. And they knew it was Mary. And she signed it. The letter of the postcard. Whatever. Give me a call. Thanks, Mary. And I don't remember the numbers, but it, like, radically increased her response rates. Wow. It was a lady. And make people feel more comfortable. I thought that was fascinating. So on your direct mail, are you sending people to a phone number, a voicemail, a website, a QR code? What are you doing there?
Ajay: We do a little bit of everything. We used to have a QR code and then we just haven't implemented it yet on the postcard. So we man, I'm a big fan of just giving them all the options. Like in marketing, I want to meet seller where they write and so they can do everything except for text, which I wish they could, But we're using Pet Live so they can call in the number they could email and then they have our website. I think those are the most immediate ones. And now what we do that's different than I think a majority of land businesses is we're big on like the book deployment train. So if somebody calls our pet live number, we're going to try to get them to schedule an appointment with our lead manager, who's then going to get them to schedule an appointment with our acquisitions manager. So we're kind of a two step process. Number one is kind of the diagnostic phone call of, you know, how long have you on the property? Are you the only seller back taxes, probate, road frontage, all that kind of stuff, right. And then if we can get through to volunteer in asking price, awesome. We do about 70% of the time, which is really, really good, I think. And then in a second kind of call, that's when we make our offer. And so for us, we are getting a lot of success out of booking those appointments because we just get a lot more people that show up and then we've got a rock solid lead management process mean like we double and triple dial our sellers for a very long time, very frequently early on, and I'm happy to break some of that out here. But we talk to over 90% of our sellers very consistently.
Joe: Wow. Good for you. So that's more like follow up, right?
Ajay: Yes, sir. Yeah, Very aggressive follow up.
Joe: Have you have you noticed which works better on your postcards? What, by the way, are you sending, like, a neutral letter postcard? It's just a hey, if you want to sell your lot, call us. Exactly. We've been testing Range Postcard. And there's this guy, Rick again. He's got a YouTube channel called Flip with Rick, and he has a thing called it's called Ross Postcard. I forget why, but he was doing this for houses. And he would send a postcard saying, Hey, do you want to sell your house at one, two, three, Main Street? We'll pay you $35,000 for it, phone number. And we'd get a lot of calls from a lot of angry calls. But the few calls that he would get that were good were really, really good leads. So we've been testing range postcards. So basically I'm just using the priced number that they say it's worth and we're doing maybe 40 to 50% of that number. And we say, Hey, we may be able to buy your property at this range. We're not getting a bigger response rate. But the calls that we are getting are a lot better because we're in the ballpark already. And I thought it was fascinating with those. We just send them all to voicemail, either text or call or 24 our recorded voicemail and then phone number, and then we call them back and we talk to them 85, 90% of the time that range is way too high. But we we're getting them on the phone, we're talking to them and we're asking them questions about the property and saying, well, you know what, sorry, we're not going to be able to offer that. What's the least you could take? Is your price negotiable at all? We can recommend a bunch of realtors to you that can help you sell the property if you want, But if you want full retail, we're not you guys anyway. We're getting about one out of 13 offers that we send to those sellers and we make an offer to every seller we talk to. Even if they're mad at us, we still send it in the mail. That's what we do. But one out of 13 offers getting accepted on there. So anyway, interesting the can I ask you some of the questions about some of the tools you guys are using?
Ajay: Sure thing, man. Yeah, I'm an open book.
Joe: Where do you like to getting your lists from?
Ajay: Yep. So we're using land division to lightbox products that a lot of big builders use. I'm not sure if you're familiar with it, but we basically get the word of it. We pay for a license at the beginning of the year. Our fiscal year was last month, I think, because I just paid four grand for it or something and we basically get unlimited data polls for an entire year. So for us, when we were texting, we were pulling about 60,000 records a month and it just wasn't economical to use a data tree. And I don't love like property radar or pop stream or any of those that are like a penny a record, you know? And so I decided to go with Land Vision. It's got some scouting tools that we really like, but it allows us to pull unlimited data. And I'm a big kind of again, I'm a ready firing guy. So we're looking at January and I'm like, Oh, yeah, I'll probably drop another like 40,000 postcards just to test, you know? And I just want to keep my team busy because I know like. Analyst Right, Because we were used to the volume from text message marketing. And so now we can pump in the same volume, but it's a much higher quality lead that comes from direct mail, right? Because you think about the seller psychology, if I cold call or cold text message with the seller I've interrupted their right eye has gotten in the middle of what they were doing interrupted their train of thought to. Now say, hey, would you consider selling your land? Whereas like a wingless voice mail or direct mail is much more on the flip side where the onus is on the seller to engage with us. All of a sudden. Right. And so you just they go through like a self qualification process. They're just slightly more motivated through either one of those marketing channels versus the first two that I mentioned. And so because of that, the leads coming in are just phenomenal and it's great. My acquisitions manager read a team call today. She was literally just saying and an was just nicer from direct mail they are via texting. I really like these leads you know and we're just we're just getting a lot of good deal volume out of it. But what I would say is you know just really guys if you're listening to this and you're wondering kind of how you want to build your business up, ask yourself this question like what type of business do I want to run? You know, because like Joe, you talk about your business where, you know, you're able to take voice mails and just said range postcards. And I'm like, Great, man. You have very qualified leads hitting your phone. If you do blind offers, arranged offers, people self qualified because they're either going to tell you F-you, which you know, okay, fine, we're probably not going to do a deal. I might still mail you an offer, but we're probably not going to do a deal and I'm going to spend a ton of time here or they're going to say, Hey, we're just like a little off. And all of a sudden, you know, you might be able to negotiate into a deal. Right? And so not to mention all the folks that are tire kickers or want too much money, they will call you, which is great because they are tire kickers or well, too much money, right? So you're building yourself a business or you can kind of do kind of a lifestyle business, right? I don't need to have a big team. I don't need to have a lot of overhead, but I can turn it on and I can have as many deals as I want because you're a smart guy. You know how to read, right? On the flip side, I'm a nut. So I decided, let's scale up the team and let's do a ton of marketing. And I'm just such a big fan of neutral man. Like we had a deal.
Ajay: The thing about neutral marketing, you have the ability to buy stuff still at a at a steep discount because you let the seller volunteer the price first. Right? And so like we just bought a deal in McLennan County, Texas. It's a commercial lot that we bought for $25,000 because the seller said that's what they wanted. We just listed it at $99,000 and we're getting calls on it. You know, we actually might have gotten a verbal unconfirmed, but our agent said we might or might not have an offer come in that I don't know. I think it's all hoopla until I see it in writing, you know what I mean? The point being, we're in the ballpark. And if we had just sent out a blind offer and I knew the value of this property, I would have set it at 40 to $50,000. Right.
Joe: So we just I'm coaching this student who's a missionary from South Asia somewhere, and I'm documenting this in YouTube videos and podcasts, and we send a neutral letter, his first batch of mail, he gets this property in the hills of some state. I won't say where this guy this property is worth about 400 grand plows about if it's if there's a house on it. We found that by accident. But anyway, fixed up worth about 400. Right. But he owes about 40 grand in back taxes. There's a vacant lot and a house with another lot with a house on it. He owns both anyway, so far. I mean, I'm just like, I'm still. I don't know if this is real. The guy just says, Listen, if you can take care of my back taxes, give me six grand in my pocket, I'll be happy. So we'll be all in for maybe 65, 70 grand. And this house and vacant lot is worth about 400 grand.
Ajay: That's awesome.
Joe: All fixed up. Now it's going to need a lot of work. I think we could wholesale that just thing pretty. But here's the point. I brought that up. If we would have sent a blind offer, there's no way we would have offered way too much.
Joe: I love that you're doing that because you just get him on the phone, talk to them. It's a sales business. It is. Oh, we were talking about direct mail and I'm thinking about doing this and I wanted to know your opinion, what you thought of it. I've got this. You see my screen there?
Ajay: Yes, sir.
Joe: All right. So have you ever heard of the third notice postcard.
Ajay: I have in the house world?
Joe: I'm thinking about trying it in the land world.
Joe: And these are about as obnoxious as they get. All right, so I'll open it up here. Third, notice how much longer before I hear from you? I've done all I can to get a hold of you, and this is my last resort. Please turn this card over. It's important that I hear from you ASAP. And here's the other side of the card. I just went to Google and did a search for this third notice. I've been trying to reach you regarding address. I'm hoping this card catches you in time. I've tried for hours to find your phone number using the internet, but I was unable to. I recorded a brief message about your properties that you could at least hear me out and then decide if we should speak over the phone. All you have to do is call phone number to listen to my recorded message about this matter. Call 24 hours a day, seven days a week to listen to my message. No one will answer. I would appreciate you keeping this matter private. All right. So I used to do this for houses and it would be talking about a double or triple the response rate that we normally would on a postcard. The problem is it makes a lot of people mad.
Ajay: Oh, absolutely.
Joe: When it started, you could see if you go to let me just I was doing an image search on Google there if you go to all action nine uncovers company behind mystery postcard. A lot of these local news companies this is November 2017 started doing like these exposés on these evil investors that were sending these. Postcards and scaring homeowners into Now the voicemail was like was never it was never tricky. It was always the voicemail was I'm trying to get back to where I was. The voicemail was like, Hey, if you've got a house you want to sell, we'd like to make you an offer and buy it, please. Here's another one from Chester County. Sleazy, alarming scamming postcard for the circular file. Another local news mystery buyer claims he wants to buy your home for less. Montgomery County officials warn property owners about While Mortgage postcard scam and then NPR. Oh my gosh. Even NPR did a story. Hey, I want to buy your house. Homeowners besieged by unsolicited offers. Now, you're not doing anything illegal, right? By sending a postcard that says, hey, just call our voicemail.
Joe: There's a picture of, oh, my God, in that picture, that postcard right there. Right. Anyway, back to this. There's nothing illegal about that. But I thought about maybe I should just, like, try it for vacant land and see what happens.
Ajay: And you get a great response rate. Just be ready to filter through all these angry folks. And I'd come back to the question, what type of business you want to build? You know what I mean? And if it gets ringing, though, and you got folks to filter, like if you had a VA that was kind of lead managing, fine. But if it's just you home in your.
Joe: Well, just send them to voicemail. Right? Send them to a voicemail and the voicemail could be just 35 40 50s six a minute just says, Hey, thanks for calling. We buy vacant land and you must have gotten our postcard about a lot that you want to sell in Harrison County. If you'd like us to send you an offer. Leave your name and number and the reference ID on that postcard, and we will send you an offer in 1 or 2 days. Thanks a lot. You know, it could be as simple as that. Yeah. Somebody listening to this and watching this, you go ahead and try it. Let me know how it goes.
Ajay: Yeah, no kidding. I can't say. I'll test that one for you, Joe. I feel I'd feel too bad doing that to my team.
Joe: We'll see. I know the guy who wrote that postcard, and I won't tell you who it is, but he just. He's. He's a big copywriter, loves copywriting. And he wrote that postcard because he just wanted to do something that he knew would get more calls. It's a whole curiosity thing, right?
Joe: So maybe there's another way you could get raise that curiosity.
Joe: All right. So you get your list from land vision. That's interesting. I got to go check them out. So it's like one time annual as many as you want then after that?
Ajay: Yeah. Do you have a limit of 20,000 a day? But I don't know so many land investors that need it. And then one day.
Joe: All right. Let's talk about CRMs. What do you guys like to use for CRMs.
Ajay: A CRM called Pebble. Probably heard of it once or twice. Yeah. We were. You've been using Pebble since the beginning, and now we're locked in, and I'm actually pretty good friends with Jesse and Kevin now. We were all in it together back in April and had some. Had some good laughs, had some good memories. But these guys are awesome and just hearing feedback, you know, and they're only me and Fight machine. So good, good things to say about them.
Joe: Well, I want to check it out again. I'm a big freedom soft user because look at time Freedom Soft was built for houses, but I kind of customized it for land. And I got a special coaches account with Rob Swanson, the owner that lets me customize it for Land Transform.
Ajay: Did you say Ron Swanson? Of Parks and recreation. But you know, Ron's okay. He's one of the characters in there. I'm like, You're kidding. His name is Ron Swanson. I'm sorry.
Joe: Yeah, well, the cool now freedom soft does direct mail, so they have their own direct mail engine in it now. But at the time, the reason I loved it is because it had all the communications in one place. So phone, texting, email and all that would happen in one place. Now, a few months ago, Jesse added that into Pebble, right. So I wanted to ask somebody, how does it work? Is it working?
Ajay: We actually don't use that feature, man so well, you know, now, unfortunately, we still use open phone as our phone management system and they're pretty integrated. Like I'm sure we could kind of message out of it. But man, my team's a creature of habits, so we've just stayed in town for a while. I'm sorry. I wish I wish I had the juice for you, but it looks great. The UI is super friendly. I always compare Pebble to Apple. I think it's like the apple flavored investing cream's super clean. Really pretty UI so easy to use and it's maybe a little bit less customizable than like a Podio or an air table, for example. But it, it has everything that a land investor needs. I think.
Joe: So are you doing your direct mail with Pebble as well?
Ajay: You know, we've only sent out one batch this year has just that first batch because we were all text message. What I can tell you is we did send out our batch through Pebble. What I don't know is when we start cranking a volume, if it makes more sense to just go direct to vendor, you know, and get a bulk discount because, you know, you knock off $0.10 a postcard on 100,000 units in the first couple of months. And that's money, right? Yeah. I like keep the money in my pocket if I can. But I'm also a big fan of reducing friction when implementing new process.
Joe: Nice. Cool. What are some other tools that you use in your business that you're into right now?
Ajay: Yeah, man, I'm super, we use map right. God I hate when people call it land ID, but I know that's the name now.
Joe: I hate it, too.
Ajay: It's frustrating for anybody that's been in the biz, I think longer than like a year and a half. I feel like other folks had no problem moving over. And even my staff is like, Yeah, you know, and I'd I'm like, I will fire you. No, I'm just joking. Never threaten that. But it's. Sorry. See how we use map, right? For all our due diligence. That's where we're looking at, you know, streets, topography, slope, contour lines, floodplain wetland, all that kind of stuff. We attached screenshots and everything as we're as we're moving along. Aside from that, man, like, I almost want to poke at what we're doing, but we're not using any crazy fancy tools. We were using launch control. We skip trace through direct skip when we do so it just we don't have anything revolutionary on the tech side. We're just I'll tell you, we're just heavy hitters when it comes to follow up. And that's been our bread and butter is set out the marketing do the follow up, get him on the phone, make the offer cash out.
Joe: Nice. I want to ask you about Texas. Okay. I've tried. Texas had a hard time because I couldn't get comps. Now you can get comps from priced, but kind of, you know, what are you doing? How are you getting comps in Texas? Do you have a realtor that you're helping with working with.
Ajay: There in this business? I just feel like you make up numbers. Just kidding.
Joe: Sometimes it feels like it doesn't it.
Ajay: Feels like it sometimes is true. So what we'll do and it's really not anything super special, we'll use, you know, Zillow, Trulia, Redfin, all the MLS sites and then Land dot com Property Control Center, property control center. You can see sold comps, which is nice. I'm typically only going to trust comps when they come from brokers, land investors. I just feel like sometimes try to throw off land investors. I just don't trust it. So and I say that as an investor that sometimes throws off other land investors. So maybe that's why I but generally I feel like brokers are reporting the correct price that they sold stuff for. So you can see stuff in property control center. But on Zillow, what you can see is the original list price, how quickly something went pending, what price it went pending at. And so we typically will look at like in kind properties, see what price they were pending and then knock off 10%. And that's kind of our ballpark. And then all the properties for sale. And if they're getting a ton of clicks like saves in the first 30 days, great. And then if I see stuff and I'm like, Oh, everything's 8000 acre and then I see a bunch of properties that, you know, are listed at 7000 an acre that haven't moved and like, well, I did something wrong here, right? So it's just a little bit more elbow grease and looking at both for sale sold, looking at what price things were pending for and then having to guesstimate truthfully. Every time we get a property under contracts, we'll reach out to a broker and get an opinion of value. And typically it's going to be the broker we're going to do business with. And so we'll get a value. But we don't do that until after we've gotten a contract signed. So we will do a preliminary comp in house based on that kind of model that I just laid out.
Joe: You know, I was going to ask you about that. And by the way, when I when I do go to Zillow, can I show you something else, too? Because I'm curious about how this works. Here. Let me go. I mean. Sure. To people. Here you go. So if I go to Zillow and I just type in Florida, Florida.
Ajay: Texas, and I'm 60 for.
Joe: Florida land sold. Right. In the last 90 days. Right. 14,273. Okay. If I go to Tennessee, 4300. Okay. North Carolina, 7200. Texas, which is supposed to be super big and competitive, only 4051.
Joe: There is a lot more than 4000 lots in the last 90 days that was sold in Texas.
Ajay: I am sure I personally have sold more than 4000 lots in the last 90 days. So I'm just.
Joe: So like I'm thinking what's missing here? Like you just don't have now, obviously see all these blank dollar signs. Right, Right. But just give me give me one county in Texas that maybe you've done 1 or 2 deals and yeah.
Ajay: We've got.
Joe: Some sort of do deals.
Ajay: In, you know, let's go with the.
Joe: How about Henderson.
Ajay: Henderson County, Texas We actually. Mr.. No deal there.
Joe: All right.
Ajay: A small deal.
Joe: There only shows 121. Yeah, I think there's a lot more than that in there, right?
Ajay: Yeah, for sure. For sure. And then.
Joe: If you. I'm not seeing any prices in here now, sometimes I'll go to Redfin. Let me go to Redfin. And let's look at Henderson County here. Henderson County, Texas. They spell it right?
Joe: Henderson County, Texas.
Ajay: Harrison's got like a weird syntax of their arguments.
Joe: Sometimes I just like the stuff I see here on Redfin Better lands. Okay, that's anything. Let's do home type land. All right. This is much better, right? Because 157, About the same number we were seeing. Yep. Maybe a little bit more. Right. Seems to me like Redfin tends to get more county data.
Ajay: I agree.
Joe: So but we are seeing some. Oh, there's a lot of unknowns.
Ajay: Dang it. To non-disclosure. And I know. Yeah, you don't really get you don't really get the data off the MLS sites.
Joe: Sometimes you go to sale and tax history and see price change. Yeah, it was listed for that. Let me just click on another one. This one sale and tax history. Yeah. So you're just seeing sometimes you see some of the. But. Okay. Somebody wants to do land in Texas. Yep. What do you what are you recommending?
Ajay: Man I'd say pick a major city, you know, over a couple hundred thousand population and go 60 and 80 minutes outside of it and mail it because I know there's going to be demand. You know, you go 90 minutes outside of Fort Worth, and I promise you, people are buying property.
Joe: One of the things I like to do is go to Land Watch and go to Texas. States like Texas. Right. And let's just look for land under 200 grand. And you see these counties here. These are just the most popular counties. Doesn't mean that's the best counties. But Henderson County has a lot of listings. Johnson El Paso. Smith and things like that. Sometimes what I'll do in other states outside of Texas is I'll look at Redfin and Zillow and see of all of these top ten, 15 counties, which ones have the most sold in the last 90 days, right? Yep. But sometimes here in land watch or land com. These websites if you scroll all the way down. But I'll. Come on. There you go. You can mark off as sold now. These are just sold that were that were once advertised on land watch or land.com and then marked as sold. Right? Yep. So do you ever do anything like this to kind of see what are some good counties? Maybe we can start looking at looking at the most popular counties?
Ajay: I'm like, I'm not that smart, Joe So I, I'm really like, Hey, if you just drive within two hours of a major metro, you'll find buyers. That's all I really care about.
Joe: Okay. All right, cool.
Ajay: I'm just not as smart as you. I'm sorry.
Joe: I'm not saying I'm smart. I just want. I'm trying to figure this out. Keep it simple. So, like, let's look at Lamar County. Have you ever done a deal in Lamar County?
Ajay: We had some marketing there, I think, but I don't think I've been sold property there.
Joe: Lamar, let's look in Redfin, Lamar County, Texas. So if I zoom out here, it's kind of maybe an hour northeast of Dallas area close to the Oklahoma border. Redfin says there's been 52 vacant lots that have sold in the last 90 days. We don't know the pricing For some of them, we do. It's interesting. So look at this. It does give sold pricing and Redfin, they're interesting. Some counties have it. Redfin has it in some counties and some counties that don't.
Ajay: Yeah, I don't know if it's a county wide thing. I do know sellers have like it's nondisclosure. But I do believe, like sellers can say, sure, make it public Data is my understanding. I rep is a seller of the buyer, I guess.
Joe: But look at this. Redfin has sold prices. No, no, no, no. Look, it says last list price. Got it. But that's still good. Best price. Yeah, nice. Because I like what you did there. You said you take 10% off or something, right?
Ajay: Yep, exactly. Yeah.
Joe: Maybe that's a trick.
Ajay: Yeah, I'd say look at that and look at the dates and be like, wow. Moved in a month. Probably means pretty accurately priced. You know, there's good demand of something moved in 30 days Probably means you priced a little too cheap in my opinion. But yeah, it was all infill out though. I think. So maybe that's pretty accurate.
Joe: Okay. So have you ever looked at Privy? Have you heard of Privy? I've heard they have really good MLS data.
Ajay: Yeah, somebody just mentioned that to me recently, but I've not looked into it. I think it's pretty cheap subscription. That's like a hundred bucks a month or 150 bucks a month or something and you're able to see some, some MLS data. Okay. Yeah, It's not really been a concern of ours. I mean, yeah, again, I just I know there's demand and in certain pockets and all the major Texas cities and we just get close enough to make an offer and we get it under contract and then we'll go double check with either a broker or some other way and get the deal done. But yeah, I don't know what we're thinking at all.
Joe: It's yeah, yeah, it's good. And you're, you're relying heavily on realtors. I just kind of started doing that six, eight months ago. Nice. It's just so much easier, isn't it? Right. You don't worry about. And some people ask, I get this all the time. I'm curious to what you say as well. How can the realtor sell it for you when you don't own it yet? That that's illegal, immoral and fattening? You shouldn't be able to do that.
Ajay: I disagree. So I mean, in our attorney, in fact, documents, we have explicit permission that we not only have the right to assign and market the property, but that we also can accept and negotiate offers on behalf of the seller. And explicitly stated leverage the multiple listing service to do so. So it doesn't get more clear than that, you know, and it's like, Hey man, like I'm going to market the property. But listen, it doesn't change anything. You're going to get a check in 180 days. Panel company is going to if you want to wire a check, that's usually your verb as you want to wire check it.
Joe: And that's cool, too, because a lot of these states that do have wholesaling is illegal laws, really. They just want you to use a realtor. That's it really comes down to that. Right.
Ajay: All right.
Joe: And you could argue, do you blue in the face? I think the National Association of Realtors is a cartel. They have monopoly power and things are changing. And that's a whole nother discussion. So that's good, I think, for the industry, right? Yeah. And there was a recently those of you that don't know, there was a recent lawsuit that was just not settled, but like went against the National Association of Realtors and there's like $1.8 billion fine. The judge changed it to $5.4 billion fine. And there's another lawsuit that's even bigger in Illinois that's going to be happening in about a year where they're asking for like $20 billion. And he's saying instead of just I think in this lawsuit in Kansas City, they were suing 3 or 4 brokerages in Illinois. They're suing like 20 of the biggest brokerages in the United States. Wow. It does not look good for the realtor industry. I think it will adjust. It'll change. It'll find a way to figure it out. And those that can adapt and can know where the cheese is moving to will figure it out. And in fact, I'm predicting that the realtors that are smart enough to see where the cheese is moving to these next few years will be the some of the biggest years for the people willing to see will be some of your biggest, most profitable years. For the realtors that know how to adjust and change for the changes that are coming. You know what I'm saying?
Ajay: Yeah, absolutely.
Joe: Okay. So you're using realtors more. I wanted to ask you then what was it? So determining your price for properties. I see a lot of people tripping up on this, right? Like, I don't know what to sell it for. It's I'm getting comps all over the board. It's too confusing. It's overwhelming. What do you teach people at Learn Dot Land? Like how to just keep it simple and how do how do you price land there.
Ajay: Yeah. So then there's a kind of I guess if we're if we're explicitly talking sales, you know, what I'm going to say is, you know, what do you comp it up? Right? Generally, I'm going to comp it, tell them about 70% accurate. Right? You know, I always say like listing is to make your offer on the acquisition side when you're comping a property and you say it's worth 85, 90, you kind of cocked your head and you're like, It's in that ballpark and great, go make an offer at 42.5, right? As a conservative, offer it there. And then I'd go price it at 90. Right now, I think it could be worth a little more. Maybe I'll start at a little more and than drop every 30 days. Right? But generally, man, it's like, hey, what'd you get for your ballpark number? Do you say do you go a little bit more aggressive if you do try it out? If it doesn't work, well, drop the price too. Simple as that.
Joe: And so you make an offer about 50% of what your ballpark is.
Ajay: Yeah. If I'm buying where we're going to start at around 42.5 and we'll go up to 50.
Joe: It's not supposed to be that easy. I thought it supposed to be harder than that.
Ajay: Now, those are just garbage stories people tell themselves. It's a very simple business that.
Joe: I'm so glad you said that. It really is. It's not that complicated. It's really hard, man. Okay. You've been real gracious with your time, Ajay. Talk about Learn dot Land. You're working with Clint in this program. You guys are doing a lot of deals with students, which is cool. Talk a little bit about that.
Ajay: Yeah, now it's been a lot of fun. Specifically, we launched a subdivide program earlier this year where we've been able to partner with some students on deals, which has been really cool. You know, I think a lot of people get scared when it comes to cutting up dirt, and it's pretty simple relatively. Like you get a survey and you record some lines and you cut up some dirt aside from that, maybe put in some driveways or well, a culvert. And it all sounds really scary because normally we're just used to pushing paper. But, you know, it's you call a couple contractors and get your dad right now. There's pitfalls, all of that stuff. So you want to work with people that understand it. But, you know, we do coaching in the subdivision to read out of done deals on that spectrum. Aside from that man like where I focus a lot of my time is just scaling up a lot of investors. So you know, my favorite folks to work with are those that are kind of stuck in like a 200 to 400 grand a year gross profit sort of business. And I'm like, Dude, I could double your business in 60 to 90 days if you let me get in there, you know? And so it's and it's all it's all the fundamentals, right? Or marketing or sales, more hiring. Right. Because you can, you can rescale your time. You can scale leverage though and just building the business you want. Okay. You don't want to do more deals. You have to do bigger deals or you have to do some different types of deals and subdivide that sort of thing. But I really enjoy just helping people scale through the fundamentals of business. That's kind of like my favorite thing to do and my time is working with existing operators that have been around for a bit. I find that most solopreneur is kind of tap out and like that, not like 250 gross profit range is where I see a lot of people get stuck as a solopreneur. And so, you know, center deviation of 20% year take, right? But that's kind of what we have going on over there, helping people scale, helping people cut up dirt and having a lot of fun doing it.
Joe: Nice. Learn dot land. And you're working with Clint Turner. He's just spend his entire time driving around in his car with a cameraman just videoing him all the time. Is that all he does anymore? Because that's all.
Ajay: It seems that way.
Joe: He's. It's funny. I'm a little jealous. I wish I could do more of that.
Ajay: Yeah. Clint is brilliant when it comes to just engineering a business. But, you know, I really asked that question. What digital business do you want to build? He's done a phenomenal job of building businesses in a way that really serve him and his life. I think he's one of the smartest. Just intellectual. Like he's brilliant, you know, And I mean, just hands down brilliant. And so it's been a really fun getting to work with him and kind of see how he operates and how he looks at things.
Joe: Nice. Good, awesome. Learned dot land. How can people get ahold of you? Do you have a social media? Are you on the tick tock, tick faces, Whatever.
Ajay: Yeah, I'm pretty active on Instagram. It's in at investing with Ajay, so just investing with Ajay.
Joe: Let me I'm going to do that real quick here. Hang on at investing with Ajay.
Ajay: Yes sir. If you hit me in the DMs, I'll probably respond. Hit me up on IG. If you don't have an IG, you can just email me at Ajay at Learn dot Land.
Joe: Ajay, thank you so much for being on the show. Appreciate you, man. It was good to meet you finally and I'm sorry for pushing all those podcasts back a few months ago. It's a little bit out of my control.
Ajay: Yeah, man. Next time you have heart surgery where you give me some notice, man. No, I'm teasing.
Joe: I'll just ask you, I'll have my people call your people. And it sounds like reschedule it.
Ajay: But hey, I'm really glad to see you're happy and smiling and energetic and everything now, man. It's a pleasure, Joe. Super, super fan. Appreciate you having me on.
Joe: Say hi to Clint for me too, would ya.
Ajay: Will do sir. Thank you for the time.
Joe: See you later. Bye bye, everybody. Have a good one.